Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread (SPOILERS)

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Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Ashes » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:09 am

Don't Read This Thread If You Don't Want Spoilers!
SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILER WARNING!
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By replacing replacing Veidt's scheme to fake an alien attack with a scheme to fake an attack from Doctor Manhattan, the message of the film was twisted a bit. The ending became a discussion on the topic "can humanity do good without the fear of a wrathful god?"

Doctor Manhattan is there representing "there is no good or bad, only survival and perishing."

Veidt is there saying "humans are dumb and need to fear of god, even if god doesn't exist."

Rorschach is there whispering "no."

Dan represents hope in the goodness of people. Lori represents hope in humanity's future despite humans being so crazy.

I'm not saying this was the intention. That's just what I got out of it.

Of course, it is 4 in the morning right now, so take this with a grain of salt. I'll probably regret it when I wake up later.
#_#

Also, they made the movie less deterministic.

Also Doctor Manhattan is similar Chou.

Geek Cred: I borrowed the book from my local library way back when plans for the movie amounted to "it'll never happen and shouldn't anyway."

Reading the book always made Catch Me Now I'm Falling by the Kinks play in my head. I was kind of hoping it was in the movie, but it wasn't.
Last edited by Ashes on Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread

Postby Anna » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:02 pm

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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread

Postby Pharmakeus Ubik » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:30 pm

Damn, Anna, you beat me to it. I'm looking forward to see it this coming Monday, when the crowds are at work/school and the pricing is matinée.

Anna wrote:Saturday Morning Watchmen
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread

Postby Wic » Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:54 am

How much true the movie is to the comic?
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread

Postby Anna » Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:03 am

Wic wrote:How much true the movie is to the comic?

Can't say, I miss my books, I'd inspect three dusty corners and they are still missing.
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread

Postby Wic » Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:58 am

Anna wrote:
Wic wrote:How much true the movie is to the comic?

Can't say, I miss my books, I'd inspect three dusty corners and they are still missing.


Well I just read the spoilers and it really sounds true to the book.

Spoilerz:








Rorschach is there whispering "no."


At least in the comic Rosrchach is a right wing extremist Judge Dredd. Still I really liked Rorschach. He's a psychopath, but at least he sticks to his ideals, and the only he counts as a friend is his Minuteman partner Dan. Wiki says that he doesn't die in the movie, so I wonder how the ending goes off. In the comic Rorschach said it straight to Dr. Manhattan's face that he has to kill him if he doesn't want the people to know the alien threat is not really an alien at all. Which he did, by vaporizing him to atoms. Watchmen sacrificed free speech to save the world, but I guess that doesn't stick to Hollywood ideals.
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread

Postby Volair » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:56 pm

I have a small pile of things to say about Watchmen but I'll just stick to "how true is the movie to the book" question:

Like with the movie of V for Vendetta, Watchmen tries to get at the real meaning of the story: "boy, you really wouldn't want superheroes to be in charge at all because they'd have to be pretty crazy to do that" and does a pretty good job. Also like V for Vendetta, a few of the peripheral parts of the message get twisted around.

For me the net effect was that I had a few complaints but on the whole I thought it got to the nub of the matter, and negotiated the extremely delicate task of telling an alternate-eighties past from a viewpoint twenty-plus years removed from the original subject matter with grace.

The alter-history fast-forward in the beginning was a really good idea I think. It does deny the viewer that same "piecing together what it was like" feeling of the book but *I* sure couldn't think of a way to do it in film better. Plus it had McGloughlin Group. I mean, how can you not love the McGloughlin group talking about Dr. Manhattan. Answer: YOU CAN'T.
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread

Postby Monthenor » Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:18 pm

Ozymandias got the short stick in the movie, hopefully one of the extended DVDs counters this. But what can't be fixed by an extended version is the crap with Nite Owl at the end. A wholly unnecessary change, and right at the end where I get to remember it.
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread

Postby Ashes » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:36 am

Wic wrote:Wiki says that (Rorschach) doesn't die in the movie

Wiki is wrong. Dead wrong. That scene went pretty much exactly like it did in the book. Rorschach is blown to bits by Dr. Manhattan in order to keep the peace.

The movie is very faithful to the book. Astonishingly so. And many of the things which didn't make the cut will be included in the three hour director's-cut version. The Black Freighter is being animated too.

It's not a perfect movie. It lingers too long on some scenes, just to show off how much like the comic it is. Some things taken straight from the comic feel awkward. The midget crime boss sent everybody in the theatre into paroxysms of laughter (partly because they got that one famous guy to play him). The guy they got to play Veidt looks like a weenie.

But it is very good.
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread (SPOILERS)

Postby arex » Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:49 pm

We saw Watchmen this morning. It was nice, because there were only three other people in the auditorium, and I'm not nearly enough of a peoplewatcher to care about their reactions to the movie.

The movie was, on the whole, very faithful to the comic. Some of the stuff they left out wasn't much of a loss...the whole bit with the pirate comics, for one, which I understood but never thought was terribly relevant. It felt more like padding than anything. I was disappointed that they felt the need to change the way it ended, however, even though it still kinda worked. Dr. Manhattan was, I think, an insufficient common threat to bring about the new world peace that Veidt was after. One would think that, after all, the US government itself would have already been studying ways to bring Manhattan down should he go "independent" on them.

The casting was great. Everyone was great in their roles, both performance- and appearance-wise. Ashes is right, though...the guy that played Veidt was a bit wienie-ish in appearance for the role. The guy that played Rorschach was frickin' awesome.

The violence was a bit appalling...as violence ought to be. Nothing was sugarcoated. When someone was shot in the leg, you saw the exit wound as it happened. Something I had a hard time with, though, is Manhattan popping Rorschach like a frog...you'd think he could've found a more merciful way to do it. The violence done to Sally Jupiter by the Comedian was hard to take, too.


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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread (SPOILERS)

Postby strange_person » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:00 pm

The handshake between Drieberg and Rorshach was... something was missing.

In Rorshach's origin-story flashback, the kidnapper's cause of death is changed in a way that (to me, at least) makes Rorshach seem much less complex and sympathetic.

Roy Chess fires six shots instead of two, and all of them miss their intended target (instead of one direct hit and one deflection). Veidt's secretary survives.

The owlship has rocket boosters.
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Monthenor » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:17 pm

I liked the guy playing Veidt, actually. One review I saw called it "full glam Bowie", and it would have worked if he had had more screen time. I mean, we get to see him being mean to a reporter and mean to captains of industry, but we don't get to see him really work the media like he does in the comic. Without that extra dimension, much of the surprise is lost.

arex wrote:Something I had a hard time with, though, is Manhattan popping Rorschach like a frog...you'd think he could've found a more merciful way to do it.

Showing mercy to Rorschach means no more to him than showing mercy to a termite.
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread (SPOILERS)

Postby draque » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:53 am

All in all, I have to say that I did like the movie. They cut a lot out, but I think that the decisions in terms of what should be cut were very good. There was limited time in the movie, and including any more in that time would have made it feel impossibly rushed. It felt like they hyped up the violence and the sex more than they needed to by a lot, which felt a little inappropriate to me. Moore was a master of subtlety when he wrote the comic, and while I have no problem with violence and sex in movies, it simply seemed inappropriate in the contexts that it was given.

The scene where Daniel and Laurie finally make love was changed from a display of regaining self worth to a chance to show a woman orgasming. It felt like the director jumped on the scene to pander to a segment of the audience that would rather be watching porn than anything philosophically challenging. The scene where Laurie and Daniel beat up some thugs in a back ally also seemed to have lost its purpose. If there was any meaning in the movie's version, it was lost in the gore. Conversely, I thought the incredible violence that Jon doled out was very good. It really helped to show that he had lost an essential element of his humanity, and that he was unable to empathize with others or to understand from a limited, human perspective what he was doing.

I did get the feeling that while the director enjoyed the comic a lot, he didn't "get" a lot of the scenes, and why they were written in the first place. Rorschach (whose name they decided to pronounce wrong in the movie...) was the best example. It would have taken only a single line to explain his meaning. The most poignant scene in the comic for me was the psychologist's discovery that there was no meaning behind Rorschach beyond what anyone else projected on it. I do agree with Strange in that I think Rorschach much less of a demon. Axing the child killer in the head was a very angry way to kill him, but burning him to death while leaving him a hacksaw was calculated, and showed very little remorse at the child's death, only a desire to punish the killer.

The ending I had some mixed feelings about. I didn't mind Veidt using Jon instead of the octopus. In fact, I think that worked better for the movie than the octopus would have. What I missed was the conversation between Jon and Veidt. While it was summarized by Laurie, it felt spelled out and cheapened a bit.

All in all, I feel like that movie was as much of a success as a movie version of the comic could possibly be. Unfortunately, I do think that it was a mistake to make. To steal a line from a review I read, when they made this movie, they took Watchmen and turned it into a comic book.

Also, my post contained massive spoilers. If you're reading this without having read the series or seen the movie, shame on you and no apology from me.
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Monthenor » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:13 pm

draque wrote:The scene where Daniel and Laurie finally make love was changed from a display of regaining self worth to a chance to show a woman orgasming. It felt like the director jumped on the scene to pander to a segment of the audience that would rather be watching porn than anything philosophically challenging.

Okay, Devil's Advocate here: they deliberately made that scene overlong and cheesy in order to mock the unnecessary sex scenes in other action movies, the way a token female is thrown in there to provide some eye candy. They were trying to translate the groundbreaking genre parody of Watchmen into a film version.

Yeah, I couldn't type that with a straight face. But I expect to see that argument around the Internet. I think a more appropriate parody would be having such a scene without any music, and maybe a static camera angle. Two minutes of above-the-waist silent humping. Watchmen didn't subvert anything by being cartoony ridiculous, it did it by making familiar superheros genuinely uncomfortable to be around.
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread (SPOILERS)

Postby strange_person » Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:00 pm

Hello!

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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread (SPOILERS)

Postby strange_person » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:48 am

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I didn't draw this, in case you're wondering. I just found it.
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Hello!

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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Wic » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:14 pm

Whoa, Scott Kurtz has learned to draw?
It's that my homunculus inside my head doesn't even try to understand the outside world. He thinks it's a video game and smashes the buttons at random to find the key where you shoot the lasers.
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Tychomonger » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:11 am

Scott Kurtz has been a great cartoonist for some time. It just only really shows when he draws something not based on 5 year old character models.
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread (SPOILERS)

Postby draque » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:53 am

Honestly, I'm wondering how much longer he's going to do PvP. It's very lucrative for him and turning his back on that would be foolish... but he's able to do much more, I think.
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Re: Your Mandatory Watchmen Thread (SPOILERS)

Postby Shackler » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:10 pm

Kurtz has always been quite good, but hasn't really shown it until recently.
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