Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby Jade Cat » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:04 pm

Alfador wrote:
Wizard CaT wrote:Not to be insensitive, but just because you were mis-medicated doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.


True. It's just so much rarer than all the doctors say, that the many misdiagnosed people are going to be certain that the cake is a lie, since they never saw it.


There's also the occasional problem even when the pills genuinely help. Ritalin actually did help me to focus when I actively couldn't seem to, but it also kept me from going to my internal happy place and I became hyper aware of the situations I was in. I discovered I do not like crowds. I very much do not like crowds. I went off the Ritalin because I prefer cudgeling myself into being attentive over having shortness of breath, tightness in the chest, and a racing heartbeat at the end of each school day when 1200 kids were going out of 4 doors. Or in the middle of a crowded mall. Or during a concert...
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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby Alikat » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:23 am

Wizard CaT wrote:Not to be insensitive, but just because you were mis-medicated doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

Did it exist in 1940?
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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby Idiot Glee » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:40 am

Alikat wrote:
Wizard CaT wrote:Not to be insensitive, but just because you were mis-medicated doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

Did it exist in 1940?


It's completely possible it did and wasn't recognized. That still doesn't account for the fact that teachers and schools won't maintain the damn discipline necessary for learning.

If ADHD is real though, should medication be the first option? Probably not, if you can help the child function without putting him on speed, by all means try that first.
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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby Alfador » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:26 pm

Jade Cat wrote:
Alfador wrote:
Wizard CaT wrote:Not to be insensitive, but just because you were mis-medicated doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.


True. It's just so much rarer than all the doctors say, that the many misdiagnosed people are going to be certain that the cake is a lie, since they never saw it.


There's also the occasional problem even when the pills genuinely help. Ritalin actually did help me to focus when I actively couldn't seem to, but it also kept me from going to my internal happy place and I became hyper aware of the situations I was in. I discovered I do not like crowds. I very much do not like crowds. I went off the Ritalin because I prefer cudgeling myself into being attentive over having shortness of breath, tightness in the chest, and a racing heartbeat at the end of each school day when 1200 kids were going out of 4 doors. Or in the middle of a crowded mall. Or during a concert...


One major problem I had with Ritalin is that I was hungry all the time while on it...

...because it erased my appetite and so I NEVER ATE. There's a reason my nickname was "Stickboy" for several years... %<

Alikat wrote:
Wizard CaT wrote:Not to be insensitive, but just because you were mis-medicated doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

Did it exist in 1940?


Okay, stop right there, please: Medical science is continually discovering new things. We have names now for fatal conditions that fifty years ago would've been called "natural causes." Yes, medicine and ESPECIALLY psychiatric medicine DOES have its phlogiston and its Freud, but just because something is newly discovered isn't grounds to doubt its existance.

Don't get me wrong though. It's no reason to believe in its existance, either.

Did quasars exist in 1740? (Okay, sorry, that question's a bit loaded--none are close enough for us to actually know if they existed LATER than umpteen eons ago. It's more of a rhetorical question to bounce back at yours.)

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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby Wizard CaT » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:35 pm

Alikat wrote:
Wizard CaT wrote:Not to be insensitive, but just because you were mis-medicated doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

Did it exist in 1940?


Well, other then what Alfador said, no it might not have. Since 1940 things have changed dramatically. TV, computers, radio waves, more light in our life, plenty of things could have changed how the mind works.
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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby Thilia » Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:32 pm

Wizard CaT wrote:
Alikat wrote:
Wizard CaT wrote:Not to be insensitive, but just because you were mis-medicated doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

Did it exist in 1940?


Well, other then what Alfador said, no it might not have. Since 1940 things have changed dramatically. TV, computers, radio waves, more light in our life, plenty of things could have changed how the mind works.


Even though I was probably at least as crazy as a child as I am now, nobody bothered to put a name on it. They just figured I was kinda nuts.

But as an adult, I started wearing an aluminum foil chapeau to protect me from all this radiation from the machines that conspire to keep me down. Now I only hear HBO when it's really quiet at night. And this little voice keeps telling me to:
KILL TIME... KILL TIME.

Time must die, and I am the one who must kill it.

But it is not I who is crazy. It is those who would stop me who are misguided or sometimes even conspiring to SAVE TIME.

They are wrong.

KILL TIME
KILL TIME
KILL TIME


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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby Monocheres » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:03 pm

Thilia wrote:And this little voice keeps telling me to:
KILL TIME... KILL TIME.

Time must die, and I am the one who must kill it.


You know, Thilia my dear, if I could keep time in a bottle, the first thing that I'd like to do is to save every day till eternity passes away, just to send them to you for IMMEDIATE TERMINATION BWAHAHAHA....

//]
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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby Alikat » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:40 pm

Alfador wrote:
Alikat wrote:
Wizard CaT wrote:Not to be insensitive, but just because you were mis-medicated doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

Did it exist in 1940?


Okay, stop right there, please: Medical science is continually discovering new things. We have names now for fatal conditions that fifty years ago would've been called "natural causes." Yes, medicine and ESPECIALLY psychiatric medicine DOES have its phlogiston and its Freud, but just because something is newly discovered isn't grounds to doubt its existance.

But medical science isn't about going around looking for a problem to solve. Somehow we managed to get along well enough before we started using Ritalin and related behavioral modification drugs on schoolchildren. There has certainly been no discernible benefit to society from the 40-year experiment in drugging schoolchildren so far. So why should we continue to do it? These are children, not guinea pigs. Except for the furries who WANT to be guinea pigs, I suppose.... :p
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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby Jade Cat » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:00 pm

Alfador wrote:One major problem I had with Ritalin is that I was hungry all the time while on it...

...because it erased my appetite and so I NEVER ATE. There's a reason my nickname was "Stickboy" for several years... %<


Ohhh man, I'm sorry. I kind of remember symptoms like that now. Never thought much of it because I was a bit of a chub. Making yourself eat is never a fun experience.
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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby strange_person » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:17 pm

Alikat wrote:There has certainly been no discernible benefit to society from the 40-year experiment in drugging schoolchildren so far.

Insufficient support for this claim; no control group. It's entirely possible that society has benefitted, but that those benefits have been overshadowed by other problems (not caused by drugs).
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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby Alikat » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:09 pm

strange_person wrote:
Alikat wrote:There has certainly been no discernible benefit to society from the 40-year experiment in drugging schoolchildren so far.

Insufficient support for this claim; no control group. It's entirely possible that society has benefitted, but that those benefits have been overshadowed by other problems (not caused by drugs).

BZZZT! Wrong! To claim that there are no control groups when we have loads of data on both our own and foreign students, both those on drugs and those not on drugs, well, all we need is the official willingness to compile the necessary statistics. They already have the wherewithal.
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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby strange_person » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:24 pm

Use or non-use of Ritalin is not the only difference between US and, say, European school systems; also, societies interact in many ways. It may be possible to learn something from a study of the available data, but that data cannot be said to have originated in an experiment with proper control groups.

Also, it's extraordinarily hard to prove a negative ("no discernible benefit to society"), and you have not presented correspondingly extraordinary proof. If there was any benefit whatsoever, even something small and counterbalanced by overwhelmingly, unacceptably greater costs, your assertion would be false.
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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby InterNutter » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:37 am

My 6YO frequently exhibits behaviour on the edge of ADD/ADHD/Hyperactivity/Aspergers... sometimes all at once. Sometimes none of them pop up at all. AFAIK, these labled disorders are pretty much permanent. I've since discovered through extensive experimentation that he's food sensitive.

Ironic moniker, that. Technically speaking, he reacts adversely to all the freakin' chemicals they love to pump into foodstuffs. I'd prefer 'numbers sensitive' after the three-digit numbers that the chemicals go by... but that's me. Some food sensitives can react to "normal" foods, like pineapples or peanuts.

The thing with ADD is that it's way too easy to diagnose. A school friend of mine has autistic kids who were mis-diagnosed with ADD for ages. Many, *many* kids with food sensitivity are misdiagnosed with ADD.

If I left things up to the alleged experts, my kid would be floating around on a chemical cloud right now. Possibly followed by an "oops, sorry" some decade(s) down the track.

There shouldn't be room for "oops, sorry", especially from people who are about to change lives. They should be absolutely fucking *certain* before they diagnose and medicate. And to make sure, they should pay a gizzard-crunching settlement for every "oops, sorry" they spout. But I digress.

The mis-diagnosis is easy because the pathology can be vague. It's easy to see a kid jumping around and say "(s)he's hyperactive" or to see a kid drifting off into lala land and say "(s)he's got ADD"... a little analysis can go a long way in both those cases.

My kids have inherited my mild case of DaVinci syndrome [hot and cold running ideas, easily distracted, hard to finish that which has been started] so it's not going to be easy to hold their attention at the best of times. Chemically muting their brainpower is not going to help them in any way.

If we invested half the time and energy [and resources] that we usually spend on war, on educating kids *properly*... we'd be farging unstoppable, IMO. Likewise, schools would have a bigger budget if they didn't insist on medicating the students.

Sometimes, I think our whole culture is slowly degrading because we'd rather use chemicals than smarts when solving problems...
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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby SilverFeathers » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:57 am

Monocheres wrote:
Thilia wrote:And this little voice keeps telling me to:
KILL TIME... KILL TIME.

Time must die, and I am the one who must kill it.


You know, Thilia my dear, if I could keep time in a bottle, the first thing that I'd like to do is to save every day till eternity passes away, just to send them to you for IMMEDIATE TERMINATION BWAHAHAHA....

//]


But there never seems to be enough time to do the things you want to do to it once you find it... I've looked around enough to know that you're the one I want to go through time with... on a wacky happy-go-lucky killing spree! B^D
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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby Alikat » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:32 am

Mick Jagger's Evil Twin With a Little Beard wrote:My, my, my, my
Don't you worry 'bout what's on your mind (Oh my)
I'm in no hurry I can take my time (Oh my)
I'm seeing red and my tongue's getting tied (tongues's getting tied)
I'm off my head and my mouth's getting dry.
I'm high, But I try, try, try (Oh my)
Let's kill some guys together
Now I need you more than ever
Let's kill some guys together now

I feel so strong that I can't disguise (oh my)
Let's kill some guys together
But I just can't apologize (oh no)
Let's kill some guys together
Don't hang me up and don't let me down (don't let me down)
We could have fun just groovin' around around and around
Oh my, my
Let's kill some guys together
Now I need you more than ever
Let's kill some guys together

Let's kill some guys together
Now I need you more than ever

You know I'm smiling baby
You need some guiding baby
I'm just deciding baby; now-
I need you more than ever
Let's kill some guys together
Let's kill some guys together now

This doesn't happen to me every day (oh my)
Let's kill some guys together
No excuses offered anyway (oh my)
Let's kill some guys together
I'll satisfy your every need (every need)
And I now know you will satisfy me
Oh my, my, my, my, my
Let's kill some guys together
Now I need you more than ever
Let's kill some guys together now
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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby Alfador » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:01 pm

Jade Cat wrote:
Alfador wrote:One major problem I had with Ritalin is that I was hungry all the time while on it...

...because it erased my appetite and so I NEVER ATE. There's a reason my nickname was "Stickboy" for several years... %<


Ohhh man, I'm sorry. I kind of remember symptoms like that now. Never thought much of it because I was a bit of a chub. Making yourself eat is never a fun experience.


Ritalin: The next Fen-Phen. @,@

InterNutter wrote:If I left things up to the alleged experts, my kid would be floating around on a chemical cloud right now. Possibly followed by an "oops, sorry" some decade(s) down the track.


'S what happened to me. :P
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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby arex » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:33 pm

Meds've made me functional again. I can't easily discount the need for a given medication, only the indiscriminate and lazy diagnoses.


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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby Thilia » Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:59 am

Alikat wrote:
Mick Jagger's Evil Twin With a Little Beard wrote:My, my, my, my
Don't you worry 'bout what's on your mind (Oh my)
I'm in no hurry I can take my time (Oh my)
I'm seeing red and my tongue's getting tied (tongues's getting tied)
I'm off my head and my mouth's getting dry.
I'm high, But I try, try, try (Oh my)
Let's kill some guys together
Now I need you more than ever
Let's kill some guys together now
....



Stop, you're killing me.

Wow, whenever I think I'm the angriest person on the board, somebody surprises me with a cute little ditty that makes me feel all better again.


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Re: Take your Sit Down and Shut Up pill!

Postby strange_person » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:24 am

InterNutter wrote:There shouldn't be room for "oops, sorry", especially from people who are about to change lives. They should be absolutely fucking *certain* before they diagnose and medicate. And to make sure, they should pay a gizzard-crunching settlement for every "oops, sorry" they spout. But I digress.

Problem with that would be, if saying "oops, sorry" is a career-ending move, existing mistakes will never be addressed (because it would become vastly easier and cheaper to dismiss your parental experimentation as "unscientific" and sweep the whole thing under a rug than to actually fix it and pay the penalty for having been wrong) and diagnostic procedures would begin to focus entirely too much on CYA, to the point where the doc would find some way to weasel out of making an official diagnosis at all.
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