Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby Yubi Shines » Thu May 01, 2008 2:01 pm

Buildin' the republic of Heaven and all that.
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Thu May 01, 2008 5:32 pm

strange_person wrote:You say that it is logically impossible for the Creator to be benevolent, that whatever entity initiated this universe must be either cruel or stupid or both, and I ask how your life, or the lives of those you care about, benefit by that knowledge.


I know who to blame, that I do not condemn humanity for its failings as much, which reduces my anger. It is less powerful and compelling to be angry with a mythological beast than with your own species, it helps me hurt less.

I don't waste my time going mad with the inability to reconcile worshipping a deity that is supposed to be benevolent while everything in life speaks otherwise.

I don't waste my time worshipping at all, or feeling compelled to associate with those who do, my weekends are my own, and so is mind.

By understanding this logic, I can make sense of why most religious people seem slightly half insane to me - I can see the logical paradox they are trapped in, and this allows me to forgive them a little, because I feel sorry for them.

I am not constrained by the arbitrary morality of any faith.

I am not hamstrung by faith, period.

I am forced to find strength within myself and from those I love, without resorting to delusion.

The fact of being able to recognize such a thing makes me feel aware, and intelligent, and the fact I did it on my own, before coming across the works of others who have come to the same conclusion makes me feel smarter yet, and that is good for my self worth.

It is also good for my self worth that, knowing that if a god exists he must be a monster, I have the courage to stand up to him and oppose him, rather than cower in submission just because he is powerful. I know I can speak truth to power, whatever the cost. That is spiritual strength if anything is.

I am now free to contemplate other things, and not be trapped by the dominant belief of my culture, or the common holy book of my culture, or of any culture, with a free mind and a free spirit. Knowing that the bible is crap, the koran is crap and the torah is crap allows me to dismiss them, as they should be dismissed, which brings me closer to any possible truth, or at least, farther away from obvious traps.

I have a keener understanding of history and of human action in relation to religion overall.

I can move on from the notion of a single god to other possibilities, which is very freeing overall.

I know I am not just another sheep, to be sheared, part of the Great Shepard's Flock.

I know my mind, and my soul, belong only to me.
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby strange_person » Thu May 01, 2008 8:03 pm

Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:I know who to blame, that I do not condemn humanity for its failings as much, which reduces my anger. It is less powerful and compelling to be angry with a mythological beast than with your own species, it helps me hurt less.
I reserve my anger for things I intend to destroy, and at the moment I don't hurt at all.

Of the other benefits you list, my own strategy seems to meet or beat them all, except perhaps this one:
Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:It is also good for my self worth that, knowing that if a god exists he must be a monster, I have the courage to stand up to him and oppose him, rather than cower in submission just because he is powerful. I know I can speak truth to power, whatever the cost. That is spiritual strength if anything is.

I can accept your logic, but is the strength you derive from that painful conclusion adequate compensation for the health it takes away?
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Thu May 01, 2008 10:59 pm

strange_person wrote:I can accept your logic, but is the strength you derive from that painful conclusion adequate compensation for the health it takes away?


Because of my nature, I cannot arbitrarily self-delude merely to feel better. I have too much ego, worth, and identity wrapped up in a complex personal definition of honesty to permit that. Since my logic in this matter appears, so far at least, to be solid, then I am stuck with the conclusion of that logic - I cannot wish it away, nor can I simply ignore it, or 'file it away'.

Thus burdened with such a conclusion, I must come to as honest a terms with it as I can, and it is always advantageous to attempt to 'make lemonade from lemons' by attempting to gain some benefit from any circumstance, fair or foul. I find that an optimal strategy. For example, I could spend my life whining and feeling bad about the defect of my birth, instead I try to see it as containing blessings in the form of awareness and knowledge derived from extraordinary experience. I try to do this with every difficult thing in my life, if I can, as best I can.

To come to the conclusion that either god is a ridiculous notion, or that if he exists, he must be a horrific monster, is not the happiest thought in the world. But, I cannot honestly ignore the conclusion. It exists. My strategy then, is to derive every, any and all benefits I can from observing my own action with regard to it.

I'm a bit of a min-maxer, to be honest.
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby strange_person » Fri May 02, 2008 2:39 am

I assure you, there is much more to be gained than mere personal comfort: I retain my intellectual integrity where it counts most - Ms. Hydrofluoric can attest to that - and can slap together a placebo cure for nearly anything. Even problems to which the placebo effect doesn't normally apply, like shrieking hinges.

There are also other benefits, less amenable to enumeration.
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Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:I'm a bit of a min-maxer, to be honest.
Aren't we all?

I suppose the only issue here I'm actually disputing is what, exactly, needs to be maximized.
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby Tychomonger » Fri May 02, 2008 10:27 am

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Aealacreatrananda wrote:When I envision a far far future.... I don't fuck around.

People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Fri May 02, 2008 1:19 pm

Tychomonger wrote:Image


This made me laugh.
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Sat May 03, 2008 3:51 am

Shackler wrote:You know, even if you assume that the supernatural underpinnings of the New Testament are invalid, its basic moral principles are still admirable.


Which principles? The principle that anyone, even at the last moment in life, can be forgiven any horrific sin, so long as they are willing to bow down, repent, and above all accept the dominion and authority of a magic Jewish zombie? Or the principle that the only possible moral life is in worshipping said zombie? Or that, following the Books Of Revelation, that only 100,000 and some will ever be saved, while the rest of all humanity is damned to eternal hellfire, so one should worship the zombie very hard indeed, in the hopes that one can be part of that small population?

Or how about these quotes from Jesus himself?

"Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father." -Jesus [Matt. x, 33.]


"Whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness." -Jesus [Mark iii, 29.]


Guess that does it for me, huh? No point in converting now.

"Don't imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword. If you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine." -Jesus [Matthew 11:34]


Jesus is a bit testy, isn't he? He'll cut you man, he'll do it. Back off, he's got a sword.

But the moral principle here is that love only matters if it is love of him. Big insecure ego on that asshole, huh? You actually like that moral principle? You think it is a good one? I don't. I think it sucks, and I would not be friends with a jerk who acted like that. Would you? I mean, if you weren't frightened of his magic powers or whatever?

I... can't say I buy into the notion that the moral principles of the New Testament are good or nice. Some... small bits... may be, but that's just cherry picking the work. If we are going to cherry pick, then let's use another book altogether, or just make up stuff. I've read the bible, and while the New Testament is significantly less awful and horrible than the Old Testament, it's still a huge horror show of intolerance and bastardry.

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." Jesus, on allowing the owning and beating of slaves [Luke 12:47]


Of course, you'd never know that, if all you've ever heard about what is in it is what some preacher type has told you. All they do is cherry pick.

Jesus was not what they teach you, and the New Testament is not what you imagine. Read it critically. See for yourself.

He then began to upbraid the cities wherein most of his miracles were done, because they repented not:
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee." -Jesus [Matthew 11:20-24]
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby Tychomonger » Sat May 03, 2008 9:13 am

Hello!
Aealacreatrananda wrote:When I envision a far far future.... I don't fuck around.

People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby strange_person » Sat May 03, 2008 12:18 pm

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the political arena?

I mean, it never really had anything to do with suggesting changes to the forum itself.
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby Pyromaniakal22 » Sat May 03, 2008 6:30 pm

Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:I... can't say I buy into the notion that the moral principles of the New Testament are good or nice. Some... small bits... may be, but that's just cherry picking the work. If we are going to cherry pick, then let's use another book altogether, or just make up stuff. I've read the bible, and while the New Testament is significantly less awful and horrible than the Old Testament, it's still a huge horror show of intolerance and bastardry.
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." Jesus, on allowing the owning and beating of slaves [Luke 12:47]


Of course, you'd never know that, if all you've ever heard about what is in it is what some preacher type has told you. All they do is cherry pick.

Jesus was not what they teach you, and the New Testament is not what you imagine. Read it critically. See for yourself.


You know, i have read it critically, and really, He is all He's cracked up to be, honestly. Speaking of cherry-picking, seems that's all you're doing here too, lol.
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby Winged-Thing » Sat May 03, 2008 8:59 pm

Hey everyone.

I'm currious, Pyro, if I were to be all tabula rasa-y could you religify me? I mean without all this bible stuff. Just things I was able to observe myself on a personal level.
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby Alfador » Sun May 04, 2008 12:28 pm

strange_person wrote:Perhaps this thread should be moved to the political arena?

I mean, it never really had anything to do with suggesting changes to the forum itself.


Given the topics now under discussion in this thread, I agree and have moved it. W!!
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby Pyromaniakal22 » Sun May 04, 2008 12:46 pm

Winged-Thing wrote:Hey everyone.

I'm currious, Pyro, if I were to be all tabula rasa-y could you religify me? I mean without all this bible stuff. Just things I was able to observe myself on a personal level.


What exactly is it you'd like to know? But sure, i'll help as best i can.
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby Argent108 » Sun May 04, 2008 4:35 pm

I'm interested, what was it that made you stop being an atheist? Not judging, this isn't a set-up to mock you for "falling off the wagon" or anything. I'm genuinely curious. Feel free to PM me if you'd rather not expose your answer to the ridicule of everyone who cares to. Inquiring minds want to know.
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby Pyromaniakal22 » Sun May 04, 2008 9:38 pm

Argent108 wrote:I'm interested, what was it that made you stop being an atheist? Not judging, this isn't a set-up to mock you for "falling off the wagon" or anything. I'm genuinely curious. Feel free to PM me if you'd rather not expose your answer to the ridicule of everyone who cares to. Inquiring minds want to know.


I myself am curious too, if you'd care to share.
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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby John Canavi » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:16 am

.......

Fascinating.

I myself can see many points and views here, but I can find myself agreeing with absolutely none of them. Religion doesn't always have to be mumbling, mysticism, and mumbo-jumbo. To categorize it in general by the actions of one or two faiths is somewhat rude, as there are faiths out there which belief in faith in a higher power, but at the same time having a clear definition of what one's own path is.

Essentially what I'm trying to point out is that not every religion is a hateful, controlling organism that seeks to dilute peoples' minds. For example, I've even met Christians and even Muslims (granted, this Muslim lives in America) that are quite open minded and kind. Surely, if such individuals exist (my Muslim acquaintance has even said there's nothing wrong with gays, bis, lesbians, or transsexuals), then even dogmatic religion can't be said to have a complete and total hold on every practitioner, can it?

It pains me to see such arguments, really.

One can still be an individual and be in control of one's own destiny even if they follow a religion. It saddens me deeply to see one of my idols in life condemning people based on a certain standpoint, when she has even made statements of how much it hurt to be turned on based on a certain standpoint.

That's all I have to say for now... Debate wearies me, so now that I've added my two credits, I'm out of this thread.
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Postby EvilXtianMan76 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:19 am

ur so ghey and your attempts at complexity and analytical demeanor make you look like a jackass. ps ur phat n stoopid

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Re: CALL FOR ACTION

Postby Mitsukara » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:37 pm

Trolling/insults of this sort are against the rules. Good day.

Everyone else, carry on!
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