Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:34 pm

Screw the racism of the poster on that other forum. He's an idiot. Obviously they don't have someone like me fiercely running their forums. Pity. That kind of attitude really pisses me off. But... what can I do. Not my forum.

The important point is that Other Forum Asshat linked to a lot of direct information of value.

I've been following the bitter words surrounding Obama's 180 degree turn around on DOMA, which he promised to overturn when he was campaigning. I had no idea just how completely, totally antagonistic to gay people he actually is.

My god - he has argued that allowing gay people to marry leads inevitably to fucking children and incest. He argues that DOMA is both constitutional, and does not in any way void basic equality under law - because everyone has an equal right to be straight.

Just like, in the fifties, everyone had an equal right to be born white, and thus privileged.

Obama argues exactly like the white politicians of that time when they argued against the equality of black people.

He has not merely gone directly against Queer folk, he is working to deny any future effort to make things any better. It just keeps getting worse and worse the more I read.

I am shocked at Obama's actual arguments.

This man - Obama - Is VASTLY more dangerous, and more damaging than Bush. By comparison, Bush was hardly a threat at all.


What I see is this: Obama is completely down with the idea of a United States where being gay is a crime, where anyone can be disappeared for any reason at any time, where corporations have no limits, where people have no services and no support at all from the government -and are little more than peasants to a wealthy elite - and where religious faith rules the laws and culture with an iron hand.

This is what I see, and to me, this is nothing less than hell.

Obama, in my opinion, is a wolf in a sheep suit, there to do competently what Bush and Cheney tried to do clumsily.
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:48 pm

strange_person wrote:I'd say the comparison to Japanese internment is deeply flawed. WWII's Pacific theater was a proper, declared war against a specific government body which overtly identified itself with a specific ethnic group, so there was at least a halfway-coherent reason to suspect members of that group.


NO. There was NO reason WHATSOEVER.

They didn't lock up any citizens of German decent during WWII. None.
Remember 'Hitler' and everything? They didn't put ethnic Germans in camps.

Why?

Because Germans are the very definition of white. That's the only reason.

But solid citizens of Asian decent were put in Nazi-style camps in the US and Canada. Why? Why them and not the Germans who started the whole thing? Look them in the eyes. That's why. That is the ONLY reason why.

Those of Japanese descent that were not put in camps served with the highest decoration for the United States. They displayed superior loyalty and determination. Look it up, dammit!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Regimental_Combat_Team

The only reason Japanese people were put in concentration camps is because they had epicanthic folds around their eyes. That's it. Racism. Bigotry. Mindless prejudice and fear.

They had no 'ethnic loyalty' they were loyal to the country they were born in -America, or Canada- and they were treated like shit by bigots. Read. Read about this. Manzanar. Here, begin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manzanar

Begin your climb out of the poop chute.

I will NOT put up with ignorant, racist crap here. God DAMN I'm angry. Fuck!

Fuck!
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby Wizard CaT » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:13 pm

strange_person wrote:I'd say the comparison to Japanese internment is deeply flawed. WWII's Pacific theater was a proper, declared war against a specific government body which overtly identified itself with a specific ethnic group, so there was at least a halfway-coherent reason to suspect members of that group. The detention ended when the war ended, and everyone knew from the start exactly what it would take to end the war.

The provisions being proposed here more closely resemble the form of 'detention' abolished by the 13th amendment, which constitutes a particularly noxious form of irony in this context.


And to add on to what the Creatrix said, what was the justification for ruining the lives of all those people for generations? They didn't keep their houses or jobs or have anything to go back to, and had no government assistance or any form of compensation. BUT we could easily tell who looked Asian compared to who looked German. To say there was a half-way coherent reason to do it is like saying we should intern blacks cuz they be dealin' crack a lot.
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby strange_person » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:57 pm

Yeah, the Japanese internment camp thing was awful. No argument from me. I'm just saying Obama's plan is even worse. Makes the stuff we did during WWII look good by comparison. It's a "calling you a snake would be an insult to snakes" kind of thing.
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby Relee » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:06 pm

The guy I linked was actually quoting someone else who was a racist fucktard. So it's kind of a chain of references. The racist guy was the one who let my friend know about the anti-gay thing, and then I let you guys know about my friend's post.


On the other paw I've linked to my friend Ion several times before and you guys usually get pissed off when I do so maybe I'll learn my lesson this time. XD


P.S. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbwNSNLPIfw&fmt=18
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby RaharuAharu » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:19 pm

Ok now I am very confused about Obama at the moment..


http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch ... oyees.html

ABC News has learned that tomorrow President Obama will sign a presidential memorandum extending benefits to the same-sex partners of gay and lesbian federal employees.

The move was long planned, sources say, though it comes at a time that gay and lesbian supporters of the president are expressing anger and disappointment at his inaction on rescinding Don't Ask/Dont Tell, his opposition to same-sex marriage, and his support for the anti-same-sex-marriage Defense of Marriage Act in a legal brief that compared same-sex unions to incestuous ones.
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:50 pm

RaharuAharu wrote:Ok now I am very confused about Obama at the moment..


http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch ... oyees.html

ABC News has learned that tomorrow President Obama will sign a presidential memorandum extending benefits to the same-sex partners of gay and lesbian federal employees.

The move was long planned, sources say, though it comes at a time that gay and lesbian supporters of the president are expressing anger and disappointment at his inaction on rescinding Don't Ask/Dont Tell, his opposition to same-sex marriage, and his support for the anti-same-sex-marriage Defense of Marriage Act in a legal brief that compared same-sex unions to incestuous ones.


A small concession with one hand to shut up the rabble while, with the other hand, you permanently take away something bigger and more valuable.

In this manner his administration can seem and claim -to some- to be working for equality, while at the same time undermining any hope of true equality.

This is a time-tested tactic. And it often works.
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby Monocheres » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:41 pm

There is a very simple thesis to explain all of Obama's actions: Do anything that vastly expands the size, scope, power, reach, and intrusiveness of government in every aspect of life (economic as well as social) and pander to the largest power blocs in order to acquire and cement that control. Screw the little guys.

Go ahead, test that thesis against every choice he's made. See if it pans out.
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby Tychomonger » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:51 am

I think its time we bring back the terms federalist and antifederalist.
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby strange_person » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:06 pm

Monocheres wrote:There is a very simple thesis to explain all of Obama's actions: Do anything that vastly expands the size, scope, power, reach, and intrusiveness of government in every aspect of life (economic as well as social) and pander to the largest power blocs in order to acquire and cement that control. Screw the little guys.

Go ahead, test that thesis against every choice he's made. See if it pans out.
You say this as if you expect it to be surprising. Mr. Obama is a career politician in a democratic republic, and an unusually skillful one at that. Would you accuse a corporate dairy farmer of promoting the milk industry as part of a plot to increase shareholder value?

The problem isn't that he's pandering to the largest power blocs available, it's that paranoid bigots, as a group, have too much clout, so appeasing them is the simplest path to power. Long-term, I think the best fix for that is education. What are our short-term options?
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby draque » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:15 pm

strange_person wrote:What are our short-term options?


Short term? Honestly, I think one of his best options is to stop it. Granted, he was naive to promise to eliminate things that are so ingrained in the political machine that not even the president can unseat them. That being said, it feels as if he's thrown up his hands, given up, and just as a show to prove he's still doing something begun actively supporting policies and ideologies that he spoke passionately against during his election. That's not something I can condone given the argument "he's a politician, what do you expect?" It's very easy to hold someone who is a member of your party to softer standards, but if we're more concerned with actual policy than the labels of "Democrat" or "Republican," it becomes very clear that Obama's are careening down the same path that Bush's did.
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby strange_person » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:33 pm

I am talking about our options, not the president's.
draque wrote:things that are so ingrained in the political machine that not even the president can unseat them.

Who or what would be sufficient to unseat said things, and how can such entities be provoked to action?
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby draque » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:38 pm

strange_person wrote:Who or what would be sufficient to unseat said things, and how can such entities be provoked to action?


Having the president's support would certainly be a good start. From there, the big hurtle is (or rather, would be) Congress. Letters to congressmen and rallies that publicize their unpopular stances regarding the policies in question are the best ways to sway their votes.
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby Mitsukara » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:26 pm

Tychomonger wrote:I think its time we bring back the terms federalist and antifederalist.

For posterity:
Fed"er*al*ist\, n. [Cf. F. f['e]d['e]raliste.]
An advocate of confederation; specifically (Amer. Hist.), a friend of the Constitution of the United States at its formation and adoption; a member of the political party which favored the administration of president Washington.

an·ti·fed·er·al·ist also An·ti·fed·er·al·ist (ān'tē-fěd'ər-ə-lĭst, -fěd'rə-lĭst, ān'tī-) n.
An opponent of the ratification of the U.S. Constitution.

------------

Not to be 'unpatriotic' on one hand and like 3 years behind the political forum on another, and derailing the thread with bad math on another, but, as we approach 8 years after the only "attack on American soil" (and yes, I know that's a whole 'nother can of worms about provability given the shady investigations and soforth, but it's not one I'm trying to open here nor state an opinion about), it's kind of glaring the amount of shit the government does in the name of "defense of the country". Defense against what?

All the skilled attempts by middle east terrorists to sneak in and kill millions somehow using complex crazy schemes? You know, the ones that are supposedly the same group that accomplished nothing for a solid 10 years back in the 90s? The ones who are not that well armed, have the crudest resources to work with, and whose entire race are now major victims of racism who get funny looks just for buying a damn burger?? Seriously?

We need all these wonderful imprisonment programs and defense means and detailed spying on our country and added security at every turn, not to mention a confusing excuse for a resource-blowing war that shares the "utter disaster of military focus/expense/oh and pointless loss of lots and lots of lives" scale with Vietnam in another country that was never clearly (and it turns out, not at all) connected to said group, and a lovely excuse for yet more ineffectual war redirected to Afghanistan (which, if this reasoning were valid, should've been focused on in the first place back in 2001-3) for that?

You'd think they'd come up with a better excuse by now (careful what you wish for though!).... except, maybe the problem is that there is no excuse.

[/ill-informed soapbox rant]
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby Monocheres » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:09 pm

@,@
I feel like I'm missing something here, like some board history before my time (started lurking late 2006 I think it was). "Federalist"? "Anti-Federalist"?
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby Mitsukara » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:24 pm

No board history that I know of, just 1700s American history. Tycho suggested earlier in the threat that the old term and it's opposite, which have long since fallen out of common usage, were relevant to today's issues and should be used again; to be sure, I looked up the definition and posted it... well, right up there above your post, before my bad mood ill-conceived ramblerant that added nothing useful to the conversation. ^^'
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby Monocheres » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:11 pm

Oh I know what they mean in American history, just thought maybe there was some special relevance to the forum, like some long, knock-down-drag-out debate that might have occurred here before I joined, resulting in some local Godwin-analog. But no biggie.

I agree that even the Federalist founders would never have imagined the kind of vast federal expansion Obama's engaging in. I think we got some couple-century-dead corpses spinning at high RPMs right now.
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:19 am

I can say this:

This is not the country I was born in. This is not America in an way that I can recognize. Even at the most corrupt, what I grew up with was an entirely different, and significantly better country than the one that is called the US today.

I say this not because of any one thing, nor of any particular grudge or issue. I say this the same way I tell you that the sky is not ever as blue, and clear, and free from smog as it once was, whether in city, or out in forest, or in wide and vacant desert; because it is a true observation.

I assure you that in the 60's and 70's even the slightest suggestion of the things that have been done to this nation would have been laughed at at best, and considered worthy of active prevention if imagined to be for real. Yet here it all is.

I blame, if blame is the word, the cause of such transformation on the useless 'Boomer' generation, and on their useless children. Two generations of overly satisfied, pliant, easily manipulated people who were raised with a deep sense of entitlement and a deeper sense that mere wanting would make expectations come into being. Two generations that do not understand themselves, parenting, politics, government, finance, or the true concept of wealth, which is work.

Above all, two generations, suckled on media, that have a very hard time separating reality from fiction. That, perhaps more than anything else, is the problem.

I honestly feel that I have a front row seat to the self-immolation of humanity.

Perhaps, I wonder, in my more mystical, and thus arguably insane moments, perhaps that is the reason I sojourn here. To watch a species fail. It sometimes feels like that to me.
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby Anna » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:43 am

Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:I can say this:
This is not the country I was born in. This is not America in an way that I can recognize.


Dates of your childhood:
President J.F.Kennedy was shoot, his brother was shoot also some years later, Martin Luther King was shoot.
The Vietnam War, NIxon and Watergate..., etc.
Well, today are different circumstances, but the big line is still there.
I can't see that the USA has changed since then. Sorry.
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Re: "Indefinite Preventive Detention"

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:42 am

Anna wrote:
Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:I can say this:
This is not the country I was born in. This is not America in an way that I can recognize.


Dates of your childhood:
President J.F.Kennedy was shoot, his brother was shoot also some years later, Martin Luther King was shoot.
The Vietnam War, NIxon and Watergate..., etc.
Well, today are different circumstances, but the big line is still there.
I can't see that the USA has changed since then. Sorry.


I'll give you one big example.

Nixon. Watergate.

At the time, his crimes were considered horrific. Terrible. Impeachment proceedings. Adults I knew openly wept about such corruption in the highest office. In the end, Nixon actually admitted his guilt. He apologized. He left office, to spare the nation further embarrassment. I grew up with Nixon being the very embodiment, the symbol of government corruption.

Compare him now with the Bush dynasty. With all the crap done to the US Constitution. 'Unitary Executive' - another way of saying 'dictator'. And above all the 'Bring it on' attitude of never admitting any wrong, ever. Of always claiming to be right - even when the law has to be illegally changed to make the illegal technically legal!

By comparison to the Bush family crimes, Nixon was a saint. A frigging saint. By comparison, Nixon was an honorable man.

Fliegen kinderschisse! I mean, seriously.
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