I'm going to be sick!

Postby Idiot Glee » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:09 pm

http://www.latimes.com/news/printeditio ... 5781.story

Welcome to California; tolerant, sunny California! Now if you will excuse me I'm going to go vomit. >.<
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby strange_person » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:13 pm

Just hair, or regular-type?

But seriously, that it's news, that everyone's upset about it, these are extremely good signs. It means that this kind of thing is rare. I mean, as bad as this is, imagine how horrifying it would be if people were used to it, if it was normal for a kid to die for wearing gender-inappropriate clothing.
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby Idiot Glee » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:36 pm

The kid is dead, I don't feel consoled that people are outraged. If things were so good this would never have happened. I'm sickened by this!
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby Monocheres » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:59 pm

*sigh*
Junior high is a crazy, brutal, dangerous time of life, no matter what your orientation. The thugs haven't weeded themselves out of the school system yet at that point, so they are out in force and on patrol. My advice to ANY teen going through it is: lay low. Don't draw attention to yourself. Just stay out of their way. Wait it out. At the very least, wait until high school to do something dramatic like come out. In my experience, high school was a much mellower time. I've heard others advise to even wait till after high school. Well, you'll have to use your judgment on that one, but by high school you may be better equipped to make that kind of judgment.

I'm not trying to blame the victim here. If anything, I blame the adults surrounding this kid, for not counseling him to patience -- or did they encourage him out of some misguided idealistic belief in personal liberty? (Well, it was California, after all.) In junior high you can't afford idealism, or personal liberty. Just work on survival first. You can pick up the idealism later.

Am I talking out of school because I'm looking in on that lifestyle from the outside? Is my perspective dated because my own youth was a third of century in the past? I dunno, some things are just universal ...
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby Relee » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:47 pm

It's kinda disturbing that you think of things that way. o.o

That's sorta like the old "If she didn't want to get raped she shouldn't have dressed sexy in a bad part of town." argument. People are not supposed to kill eachother. I can forgive ignorant people for not understanding and making fun, but killing is more than a little too far. It's way out there. Completely unacceptable and un-expectable. Keep your head down? Geez that's just... mean. No you can't be yourself! You'll get killed! You really want to teach these kids that? If that's the way your society really works, maybe you should work on changing it.

Where I'm from we don't have a Junior Highschool system, we just have Elementary School for nine years (Kindergarden and grade 1-8) which is usually done in a school located in a residental area with around 16-30 students a grade. Then the students from many elementary schools get combined in a few high schools with around the same class size, but more variety of subjects and more 'repeats' of the same class so that popular subjects don't get large class sizes.

School is mandatory up to the age of 16, and is provided free of charge by the government. Most people stay in high school untill they graduate however, which takes four years currently. They used to have the option of taking a fifth year for special college prepatory classes, but they removed those just after I graduated from High School.

Grade school can be a little awkward if you're different 'cause the other students might pick on you or tease you, but they don't go killing you. In the rare and tragic cases of school killing it's the weird kid who was picked on, not the other way around.

High school can be a little better 'cause the large number of students congregating tends to mean you're not the only weird one, and even 'normal' kids are at that stage where they're experimenting with their identity. It depends on the area though. Out west there are some messed up places though. (out west is Canada's down south)


>.< Sorry if I seem a little harsh, I'm just really uncomfortable with what you said.
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby Idiot Glee » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:09 pm

I barely survived school.

In elementary school I'd get beaten and teased mercilessly.

In middle school it got so bad I had to be pulled out and home schooled.

In both those cases the incompetent and negligent teachers and administration would treat me like I had a problem, that I wasn't taking that "innocent" teasing right. When three run up on you, push you into the ground and start kicking and spitting on you, oh you must not be taking things right!

I went thru high school and dressed as androgynously as I could (more in a punk style though, and I didn't exactly have a choice I'd have flipped out if I couldn't), I tried to come out and was brutally teased, and ran screaming into the closet again. I'm lucky I'm still alive given the responses I got. So don't act like I have a problem, I mind my own god damn business, I'm polite and mind my pleases and thank you's, I don't go out looking for fights...

So don't tell me I should be someone I'm not our of fear! I was sick of that shit when I was a little kid, and I'm sick of it now!
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby Monocheres » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:40 pm

Idiot Glee wrote:So don't tell me I should be someone I'm not our of fear! I was sick of that shit when I was a little kid, and I'm sick of it now!


Emily is this directed at me? I'm truly sorry for the tough time you got growing up. Grade school and junior high were bad enough for me, and all I had going against me was that I had the gall to get good grades. I can only imagine what it must have been like for you and others like you...

I'm not suggesting anyone live their whole life in fear. But those early teen years are such a terrible time. Everything is changing. The worst of your peers are at their worst, right at the time you're most vulnerable and most easily damaged. Just out of a sense of self-preservation, you need to avoid the conflict somehow. Hold it in. For a while. Use the time to grow, to gather your strength, to figure things out. Then, when you're old enough, when you're tough enough, that's when you make your stand.

I'm sorry if I touched a nerve here.
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby Idiot Glee » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:07 pm

It wouldn't be so bad if they kept kids disciplined, taught them not to solve ALL there problems thru violence and passive aggression. Nobody keeps order in those places, they are warehouses for children, nothing more. Noone can learn, because they're too damn busy fending off BS.

No, whenever they hear of bullying the answer is always "ignore it"! As though one can ignore that shit! They let little tribes form and fight it out, and noone comes out quite right! However good an idea it is to keep ones head down, it is not something someone should have to do. It offends me to be told I should keep my head down, because it is not my fault others are evil; it is theirs, let them bite their lip!

This whole situation makes me feel physically ill, I've been on the edge of throwing up in disgust, and choking back tears since I heard. This kid was murdered because the school system refuses to teach any form of morality, not even the barest bones 'be nice' morality, and whenever they do teach it, they wink and nod and don't enforce it. You go to school to learn, not to be driven crazy, not to be killed!
>.<
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"But if I can't be sorry, why,
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby Yubi Shines » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:16 pm

Going through elementary school among girls, where the bullying is often (not always*, but often) subtle and invisible to adults -- if a group of girls deliberately excludes you and you end up wandering around alone, a teacher just thinks you're a weird loner person -- I've sometimes thought it'd be better to be a guy, and solve all the bullshit with a punch.

And then this sort of thing comes to my attention and I have to rethink things.

The impulse is to say, "The kid did this without thinking," or "He shot him without understanding the consequences" and that's just bull. Firstly, that's removing the boy from the blame, and secondly, if he's that age and he doesn't know what guns do, doesn't know what a crime and a criminal record are, doesn't know that death is death, then that boy is mentally ill.

Yes, his parents should have parented him better, and yes, the school should teach acceptance and respect, but the blame is on the killer.

Clothes are clothes, and someone's orientation is no one's business but their own and possibly their partner's.

I'm personally not sure what the point of "coming out" really is, even to your own parents**, since it kinda makes a big deal of something that shouldn't be a big deal... but that's not the point in this case at all. The point is the lack of acceptance to diversity, and the "might makes right" attitude that just doesn't get dealt with nowadays until it explodes into a horrible situation like this.


* You know "birthday beats" in North America where you get punched the number of times you are old? In Singapore, I'm told that what happens is two to four girls grab you by the arms and legs, raise you just above the ground, and bump your arse on the floor instead. Kids have gotten injured doing this.

** Unless your parents are the kind of people that do arranged marriages, but that's a whole other issue.
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby strange_person » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:42 am

Please calm down, Emily. Yes, it's horrible. Yes, someone is dead, because of ignorant malice and a broken school system. Yes, something must be done. Redact your latest meal if you must, break down in tears, let the empathic pain express itself in whatever way is most natural, take your time, but please, calm down.

Take a deep breath. Think about how long you've been alive, how many times during that life you've slowed down to taste the air. More than you could count, right? Millions, maybe. Try to imagine that number.

There are five or six billion humans, alive on the earth today. Some statistician worked out the population growth curves, projected them back, took the integral. Added up the generations. In all of recorded history, probably about one hundred billion human lives. If even one one-hundredth of one percent of those lives ended as violently, as pointlessly, as the one you have highlighted for us today, that's still millions. For every breath you take, there was once an innocent life that ended in horror.

Why, then, should we take note of this one? Why did the school get increased security, why did the news media bother with the story at all?

Because, as bad as this is, it's increasingly the exception, rather than the rule. "That is a problem, and we are working on it."
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby Tychomonger » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:47 am

strange_person, you have an uncanny sense of perspective which I have never been able to obtain. I admire you for it.
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby strange_person » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:51 am

I've been wondering about that myself. I'm still trying to find corroborating evidence, but I have reason to believe that during the "fetish-imprinting" period of my life (equivalent to when the current crop of furries were watching TMNT), I was reading this.
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby Idiot Glee » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:04 am

I'm not relieved that one death is so miniscule compared to how much death there is.

This happened to someone in my neck of the woods, to someone with what seems to be a lot of similarities to me. That could have been me, dead in a classroom. No matter how rare this is, no matter how many after the fact apologies are made, now matter how badly they punish this other kid, that doesn't change the fact that every non-straight child has to suffer terribly thru what everyone touts as the "happiest years".
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby strange_person » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:39 am

Anyone who refers to junior or regular-type high school as the "happiest years" of anything is one or more of the following:
1: Being sarcastic
2: Ignorant/delusional
3: Referring to an exceptional case, such as the perp in this story (school may suck, but it's paradise compared to prison)
4: Part of some school system vastly different from the one we know

"Every non-straight child"? Trust me, heteros don't get some magical exemption.

You aren't supposed to be comforted by the other, similar disasters which have come before. You're supposed to be comforted by the fact that this kind of atrocity is now so rare as to be newsworthy. It has happened before, but we are approaching the point where it might not ever happen again.
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby Thilia » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:56 am

While my school days, in total, probably weren't the happiest days of my life, I can say things have changed a lot since the '50s and '60s when I was doing 8 to 3. I don't know if I'm tough enough to go to school these days.

In the olden days, the principal could whack your ass a few times if he saw your face in his office too often. And it was almost unheard of to ditch class.

There was a lot of sleeping being done in the back of the classrooms, but it made it possible for those of us with some interest in an education to sit up close and interact with the teacher.

No knife fights going on to distract us, either in the building or on the grounds. Yeah, we had some great fist fights that grew a better crowd than most school sports, but nobody died.

Fact is, nobody was gunned down at my high school until several years after my graduation. But it was changing in the last couple of years, even back then.

Apparently the change didn't happen all at once nationwide. From what I gather, California and New York City were in the lead for this wonderful evolution in education. And I was safely hidden in the drowsy upper Midwest, where the Calvinist Ethic apparently held sway a little longer than the more progressive parts of the world.

In these here post-modern times, we've got people whose only contribution to the development of their kids is maybe some DNA and a room they can stay in until they're tough enough to leave. The schools are expected to do all that annoying day care and parenting stuff. And apparently our schools aren't raising our kids right. Amazing.

But at least I was smart enough not to follow the family tradition of teaching school. It would really suck to spend years getting the credentials to do something that has become so hopeless. Not to mention downright dangerous.


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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby draque » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:18 am

I'm going to have to go with Strange person on this one. The news and pundits seem to tout the idea that violence in teenagers is at some kind of peak right now, but there just isn't any data that supports it. Here are a couple of good links for info on that... http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/figures/70-Figure-1.gif and http://www.isteve.com/Crime-Abortion_Serious_Violent_Teen_Crime.jpg. You can see that in the 90's there was a peak of violent crime ending in deaths and that in the 70's there was a peak of nonlethal teen crime. Currently the lethal crime rate is only nominally higher for teens than the valley in the 70's and the overall crime rate is lower than in the better part of a century. Obviously I'm not saying that we need to let kids beat each other up and kill each other, but the idea that there is currently some kind of crisis is simply unsupported by any data. It's tragic when a kid is hurt and finding better ways to protect kids from deadly scenarios as they grow up is always going to be a priority... but there's no emergency scenario here.
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby Monocheres » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:00 pm

Idiot Glee wrote:I didn't exactly have a choice I'd have flipped out if I couldn't


This does give me some pause. I wonder, if somebody had told me that I should hold off being a straight-A nerdy teacher's pet bookworm for a couple years in junior high, because otherwise I'd be terrorized and maybe killed by the goons in my class, could I have done it? I don't know. So I could be wrong about what I wrote above.
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby OtakuMan » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:48 pm

At least Jack Thompson hasn't started blaming this on video games.

Yet...

I feel sick whenever he opens his mouth.

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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby Wizard CaT » Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:29 pm

Yes Relee, if you dress a certain way in a certain part of town, you are asking to be raped. It's a fact basically.
Well by all means then let's just make it the law that all women should wear burkhas so we won't be perceived by everybody as having "asked fer it."
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Re: I'm going to be sick!

Postby strange_person » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:36 am

Wizard CaT wrote:Yes Relee, if you dress a certain way in a certain part of town, you are asking to be raped. It's a fact basically.

Doesn't make it any less of a crime.
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