Alikat is on Temporary Ban

[Shackler]

Still ... have any of you ever had the experience of working for long hours on some long, complex, highly-crafted piece of text -- be it prose, poetry, or programming -- only to have your computer suddenly crash on you and lose everything? You try to reconstruct it, but no matter how long you beat on it, you know, you just know that you haven't really reproduced what you had before. That's painful enough. But to also know that someone deliberately caused that to happen, that's got to be far worse.

Quite honestly, nothing I posted here was at this level, and if it had been, it would have been quoted or I would have saved my copy. Having all my posts deleted is less of an obstacle for me than it is for those who are trying to make sense of previous discussions.

[Monocheres]

Please try to forgive Alikat; this was extreme, but I assure you that she is the best of souls. She's seen a LOT of hurt. More, by far, than even myself. Whenever I think I had it rough, I remember her life. Be kind to her. Please.

Oh ... I breezed past this way too fast. If Jennifer asks for something with this level of pleading, it's incumbent on all of us to comply. Okay, I take back my harsh judgment of my previous post. Although ... it's clear Alikat does need to get some help...

[Anna]

Well, I haven’t read the dispute from which all started on, I just a flew over it.
That’s my limited english, for bigger stuff I need time and some silent moments.
Now it’s gone.
That’s also unfair to me, - but I what I remember is that it escalated in a furios way and I decided not to post some text into this thread, for a good reason.
And with my english, oh no…, it’s better to be outside.
In the old forum there was once also a short clash between Alikat and me, (but not in TS matters.)

To be honest, the change of Shackler’s ID to "Schickelgruber", as he describes, made me laugh, yes, also unfair, but removable, Alikat had better use this kind of punches, there would be a lot of names to use, still very very unfair, but removable.
Sorry, sorry, sorry, Shackler, please excuse…
By the way, newer historical resarches made clear, that the austrian A.H. was never a Sch.
And the only Schickelgruber I could find in the german Wikipedia was indeed Austrian, but also a Mayor and did plenty of good things in his town.
I hope this info rebuild your inner pride.

Help Alikat?
I hope that she and Jennifer had meanwhile a little talk about this adventure.
Good friends should do that.
If she needs help, there is the best place where she can get it.

[strange_person]

No backup in the Jenniverse does not mean no backup full stop.

What about the Wayback Machine?

They probably haven't indexed recently, and I don't think it's strictly possible to revert; even if it were, that would mean killing everything said since my posts were deleted. We may just have to go by context and what's quoted in this case, though it's not exactly a good option.

I'm not talking about reverting, just keeping a copy for reference, like this.

[Monocheres]

Help Alikat?

Hi Anna. FYI: I don't know whether it's the same in German, but the expression "get help" is an English idiom meaning "get some psychiatric help", i.e. "go see a psychiatrist", often said with an uncharitable or disdainful connotation. I admit the first time I used it I was being rather uncharitable, and I'm sorry about that, but the second time I wasn't.

I hope that she and Jennifer had meanwhile a little talk about this adventure.
Good friends should do that.
If she needs help, there is the best place where she can get it.

One would hope so ... but, see, Alikat's act of electronic destruction wasn't just a case of lashing out at someone she despised (which is bad enough in itself). It also required her to be destructive to her friend. Alikat violated her friend Jennifer's trust, her value system, even her intellectual property. Jennifer may be in a position to forgive, but I doubt she could forget. So I'm trying to suggest (gently, I hope) that perhaps some impartial third party could better help Alikat come to terms with her ... um, anger issues?

This is not to belittle any of Alikat's grievances, which I'm sure are legitimate (at least in part). But a lot of people suffer hard knocks in this world. Not all of them allow the anger over that to consume them to this degree. I reject the idea that being the victim of past intolerance or violence gives anyone a license to be intolerant or violent to somebody else, especially if the only excuse is your chosen target happens to be different from you, or happens to have opinions that you find disagreeable. And especially if you are so intent on hitting your target, that you don't care who else might get hurt.

Really, this situation has all the earmarks of a Greek tragedy (and I should know). Sad ...

[Anna]

Oh Monocheres, don't make it to much dramatic

Alikat had writtten earlier that she did get the diagnosis Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (AD/HD, or often abbreviated ADHD).
She denied it because of the medication*, fact is, a impulsiveness is typicall for this.
And that was impulsive!
*the medication is to much often in use to supress kids which are to "wild" and disturbs the school class.
so a critrical view is important
I've got this, without hyperactivity, but if I'm getting nervous and nothing works for me, I'm gonna freak out.
My brother has it also, just a few weeks ago, I had to save the life of his laptop, the other one, from his company was smashed on the floor, some months ago. And he can become very unfair to other people.
Our impulse controll is not working correct. That's typicall for people with ADD.

And if you still think there is some help needed.
Well, then the police would also need help...
?? oh yes, I will tell you.

There is in my view some kind of irony in this case.
Alikat's dispute with Shackler was about police officers who often hit, clobber and more nasty things to TS's and other sexual minorities. And it was about murder of transgender people.
It was the anger of the power, the force officers do have, the abilitiy to punch kick ... without the fear to be punished themself for it.
(Please don't forget, 1. my worse english, 2. I had only a few looks on this thread.)
So Alikat was in a bad mode, she couldn't touch shackler, couldn't convince him, and during she wrotes , there was a growing anger, and the feeling of helplessly, - no there was something, she could strike back, she had the power, she was mighty, there was a way, and all the frustrations did swall like a tsunami in this possible canal.
Right or wrong didn't work anymore. She had the power, more power than Shackler ever will have.
Now she was the police officer who did kick and stamp onto her victim.
You see, that's the irony I see in this case.
She did the same what made her angry, she had change the side.
The dark side of the force. And like Darth Vader she probably felt very good.
It is easy to be the evil one, even if you think you are one of the good guys, and even if you did it for all the supressed victims.
Morality is only a viewpoint, the result does count.

That's my interpretation, I will see what I can learn from it.
However, this week wasn't boring.

[strange_person]

That's an excellent point, Anna.

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/p ... rupts.html

[Jennifer Diane Reitz]

The irony which Anna so brilliantly points out has not been lost on me, either.

Why do you think that I am doing a story about an abused Jellese that seeks ultimate power in order to erase from history her perceived abusers?

Such issues loom large, I think, in the lives of those who are the marginalized, the dispossessed, the oppressed, the alienated, the excluded.

People like me, and like Alikat too.

For me, the exact moment I decided how I would deal with my personal horror is etched in my mind, forever.

I was likely ten. I was on a school bus, and during the trip assholes had been savaging me for being different. Let's face it, I acted pretty girly, I couldn't help it, I had not yet learned any means to pretend to act otherwise. The bus driver only intervened when we got to the school, he kicked the bullies off first, and I sat on the bus until they left the area and went to class.

As I sat, looking out the window at them, as they screamed at me, about how they were going to hurt me more, I noticed beyond them another student, in the distance, on the playground area, being cuffed about the head by some bigger boy, just, I presume, because he could, and I had an apotheosis.

I would not be that. No matter what. No matter what was ever done to me, even at the cost of my very life, I took a vow to the universe itself that I would never be a bully. I would never cause deliberate hurt, I would never pick on the weak, I would not use any power I should ever have at the expense of another. I would accept others, encourage others, help others, and be kind to everyone as best I could. I could fight back in a dire situation; but I would never initiate violence against another for any reason.

No matter what, I would not be like them. I would be everything they were not.

I keep and treasure that vow to this day, to the best of my power, it is a beacon to me through my life.

I think of it whenever any power of any kind is given to me. It is useful.

Because the beast, the one that resides within us all, is always there, in the back, crouching, forever licking its wounds, forever sure of its divine right to revenge, or its innate right to do whatever it wishes; a blind, deaf, cruel beast.

I honestly think that to be good, one must understand one's own bad.

[marinschild]

I hate that this happened. I'm kind of glad now that I don't participate much in debates on this forum. It is a shame to see one of the forum admins commit such a blatant act of abuse, especially when discussing the topic of power abuse involving authoritarians.

I have only one thing to say about people and their actions: Angels and Demons come in pairs.

[Monocheres]

Oh Monocheres, don't make it to much dramatic

Heh. Well sometimes I can't help myself ... :-/

(Please don't forget, 1. my worse english,

Actually, I was going to say that you do pretty well for someone who's coming at English as a second language. English can be a daunting language to master, even for native speakers. But I've found that you always manage to get across what you mean, and it's even interesting to see the German constructions hiding behind your English words. Every now and then I try to help you out by giving you what I hope is a careful explanation of some difficult or subtle English idiom, or what preposition to use in a given context (always a difficult thing, in any language), or some such. I hope you don't mind when I do that, it's really just my way of trying to encourage you.

Alikat had writtten earlier that she did get the diagnosis Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (AD/HD, or often abbreviated ADHD).

Yeah, I kind of recall that too now. You know, my wife has a cousin. Young guy, smart kid, very talented, wants to be a film-maker. He's got narcolepsy. Always at risk for dropping off to sleep with no warning. So that means ... well, he just can't drive a car. Can't be trusted behind a wheel, ever. That doesn't make him a bad person or a loser, it's just something he shouldn't be allowed to do. Something he's going to have to make allowances for, throughout his life.

If Alikat has some sort of condition that makes it difficult to control her impulses when she's under emotional stress, well okay, we can make allowances for that ... but then (and I'm trying to say this as kindly as I can) perhaps she just shouldn't be put in any position that gives her power over other people.

Jennifer just mentioned "the beast" and that reminded me of that thread I steamrolled a while ago... you know, the one where I related the theory that humans evolved intelligence because of human-human war, and I concluded that we all have a "beast" within us as a potential. That reminded me of George Washington ...

You know, I read a theory once by a famous doctor and science writer (I think it was Oliver Sacks) regarding Washington. He suggested that Washington may have had an XYY chromosomal abnormality. It would fit with his tall, gangly frame, big hands, out-sized nose, bad teeth, possible infertility (he and Martha never did have any kids) ... and -- get this -- a tendency towards rage bordering on anti-social behavior. (Many of the inmates in our prisons today are XYYs.) In fact, there are are some anecdotes about Washington that hint that he may have been plagued by a fiery, almost uncontrollable temper. For instance, when the Continental Army was suffering from a particularly bad patch, he was know to sometimes go out into rainstorms on his horse and charge around at a mad gallop. And yet, his reputation in history is that of a sober, rational, dignified, prudent, thoughtful, measured commander-in-chief. The soul of discretion and moral clarity. The only way to reconcile this is that he must have had to make a conscious choice to overcome his temper by sheer force of will. If that's true, it makes his achievements all the more remarkable.

Oh and yes, I see the irony in Alikat's situation as well. (I wish I could look over that thread now, I only saw snippets of it ... but, oh well.) It's the irony that makes me compare it to Greek tragedy. In Greek tragedy, the hero falls not because of some external enemy that defeats him, but because his own fatal flaws reveal him to be the very enemy he hates and fears. Dan Rather hated Tricky-Dick Nixon so much, that in the end he became Nixon, and suffered his own fall when his own Dirty Tricks were exposed ...

[draque]

*** OOPS. Edit in progress, didn't mean to submit yet ***

Caught you! Red handed, you scoundrel! Villain! Also, if you edit a post before anyone replies to it, it won't show up as having been edited at all. But I ruined it for you. |: D

[Monocheres]

*** OOPS. Edit in progress, didn't mean to submit yet ***

Caught you! Red handed, you scoundrel! Villain! Also, if you edit a post before anyone replies to it, it won't show up as having been edited at all. But I ruined it for you. |: D

Curses, you've foiled my nefarious plan! MWAHAHAH.

[Jennifer Diane Reitz]

I have judged that banning Alikat is not useful, instead I have removed her from administrator status and given her standard user, ordinary forum member status. I have reactivated her account, as a normal user. I have excluded her from admin power.

I am reasonably sure I did it correctly; if any of the admins want to doublecheck me, feel free.

If she wants, she can post and do the things an ordinary user can do, but I cannot trust her as an administrator anymore, much less as group leader. It is important that she be given the kindness of being able to have her say, to still be part of things. Banning her serves no value, it just censors her, and frankly, I certainly want to hear what she has to say, including anything about all of this.

The new group leader is Tychomonger. He has been exceptionally valuable.

It might be wise to add a new replacement member or two to the admin staff; having multiple administrators was very wise, I think. Any suggestions or applications should be sent to my private mail on the forum for consideration.

[Monocheres]

Jennifer, that seems like a fair and measured course. I've always thought that every person in this world deserves a chance to succeed -- under the best conditions for that person. The misfortune is that for a lot of us, the context for our personal best never arises. We may not even be able to recognize what that context should be.

One thing I'd like to reinforce if I could: This is a safe place. That's why so many of us keep coming back. It's safe to voice your ideas, even if they seem out of place, even if they rankle. It actually makes it more interesting if there's disagreement. Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis.

This is a safe place. Or at least, we strive to make it so. We don't always succeed. Occasionally the discussion gets heated. It's bound to, with so many strong opinions whizzing around this cyclotron and colliding. Gotta remember it's all just words. (I'm talking to myself as much as anyone.)

Alikat, if any of my more contentious posts have ever offended you, please remember that ultimately, they are of no consequence at all ... except to whatever extent my poor faculties of persuasion manage to sway anybody, and to whatever extent anybody allows themselves to be persuaded.

[Monocheres]

Alikat, if any of my more contentious posts have ever offended you, please remember that ultimately, they are of no consequence at all ... except to whatever extent my poor faculties of persuasion manage to sway anybody, and to whatever extent anybody allows themselves to be persuaded.

Regarding the Art of Persuasion: I went back to that thread and took a good look at what was left of it. Whew ... Um, Alikat, I'll acknowledge that you might have some compelling points, but if so, they get completely lost under all that rage. Anybody who doesn't already agree with you is simply going to hear the anger and the swearing and the sweeping generalizations and the parochial jargon and the ad hominems. That kind of talk won't persuade -- in fact, I can't think of anything more likely to take people who might have been persuadable, and actually induce them to dig in their heels. On the other hand, Jennifer submitted a post on that thread that gave me pause about the whole subject. It made the case in a very calm and measured way, without distracting me with a personality conflict. That's the way to get through to people ..

Oh, now, what am I doing? I mean, I'm probably still on ignore, aren't I?

[Edit: Changed a little of the awkward wording above, replaced a couple key words that might have been misconstrued as inflammatory, and added the bit about Jennifer's post.

[Monocheres]

*** OOPS. Edit in progress, didn't mean to submit yet ***

Caught you! Red handed, you scoundrel! Villain! Also, if you edit a post before anyone replies to it, it won't show up as having been edited at all. But I ruined it for you. |: D

Nettiquette Question: I often find a typo or something immediately after submitting a post and edit it right away, but don't mark it as edited. Above, I accidentally submitted a post while I was still in the process of composing it, edited in a disclaimer, finished writing the post, then took out the disclaimer. Are these RBNNs? (Really Bad No-Nos)

[strange_person]

Try the "preview" function.

[Monocheres]

Try the "preview" function.

You misunderstand. I know all about preview and use it all the time. In fact, in that incident above, I had meant to hit preview. But I hit submit instead by mistake and was left with a quandary. And regardless of how many times I preview a post, it does happen now and then that I spot something I want to fix very soon after submitting. Is a quick edit a big deal, if it's say within 5 minutes? 10 minutes? 15? Or perhaps, before anybody replies? Just want to know what the etiquette is.

[Jennifer Diane Reitz]

You misunderstand. I know all about preview and use it all the time. In fact, in that incident above, I had meant to hit preview. But I hit submit instead by mistake and was left with a quandary. And regardless of how many times I preview a post, it does happen now and then that I spot something I want to fix very soon after submitting. Is a quick edit a big deal, if it's say within 5 minutes? 10 minutes? 15? Or perhaps, before anybody replies? Just want to know what the etiquette is.

As far as I am concerned, the only thing that matters is that people manage to get their posts the way they like them, and are able to say what they mean to say, as best the can.

It does not matter how this is accomplished.

Simpler yet; the purpose of the forum - to communicate - outweighs any trifling matters about how the buttons are used. If you have to edit your post 13 times within as many minutes, because you keep messing things up, or are trying to get the alignment right, then do it.

The only thing that matters here is that you should be able to make your post work the way you want it to.

That is my feeling.

[ThingOfThing]

You misunderstand. I know all about preview and use it all the time. In fact, in that incident above, I had meant to hit preview. But I hit submit instead by mistake and was left with a quandary. And regardless of how many times I preview a post, it does happen now and then that I spot something I want to fix very soon after submitting. Is a quick edit a big deal, if it's say within 5 minutes? 10 minutes? 15? Or perhaps, before anybody replies? Just want to know what the etiquette is.

Depends on how big the edit is. If it correcting a misspelling or something, I don't think it would matter. And I think pretty much any edit is OK, within reason, as long as you make a note of it.