TSH # 329 • Safe


Kaye Haychold's ambitious plan

TSH # 329 • Safe

Postby Anna » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:00 am

http://pasteldefender.com/to%20save%20her%20329.html
To live in an interesting story?
Then my own author is an idiot, - by the way, but that's, ahm, is an other story... :wink:

Not to go in the area right over there, he is safe, Texto said...

He can change the timeline much simpler.
Change your clothes, Texto, and there is a chance to alter the timline, put your cloak and you hat away, make your hair into a kind of a ponytail, so look different. And don't put your shoes on!
http://pasteldefender.com/to%20save%20her%20200.html
And maybe, have a little talk to Kaye about this situation.
You all know what can happen, so why force it to let it happen?
That's my idea, but as ever, no one ever listen to me, so go, make your own stuff, believe that it is an unvoidable fate.
Last edited by Anna on Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: TSH # 208 • Safe

Postby marinschild » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:58 am

Virtue could just clean the floor of the bloody footprints. He doesn't need to change his appearance to alter the future. I'm still wondering what is going to happen to Vola. I guess she could be thrown off the ship in an alien splay, but with the recycler out in the strip that shows the future it is possible that Kaye had her recycled. Poor Vola. I've always liked her. :kiss:

I had the thought that maybe Virtue could just kill himself to avoid being killed by Lady Haychold, but he's a pimp and pimps don't commit suicide.
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Re: TSH # 208 • Safe

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:52 am

I... have a plan, if I can pull it off... to reference Virtue's shortsightedness with regard to avoiding an unpleasant future. It could be darkly funny, I think. Yes, Virtue could potentially alter or even avoid that timecrossed future just by changing his look or cleaning the floor, or a thousand other changes. Move the crates. Lots of things present themselves.

Then again, perhaps the details don't matter; perhaps what was seen was a most-common potential future, and if so, then the other Mover was not our crew, but a close version of our crew, and changing clothes or moving crates wouldn't alter the larger events one bit. In that case, avoiding that area does make sense, or at least more sense. Who knows how many Movers experienced that crossing? Maybe billions. Maybe trillions. Maybe a percentage slice of an infinite set. Cleaning the floor could mean nothing in a heavily biased cascading event stream.

Still these are reasonable notions. Virtue is interesting in that he may be very self controlled, but he is also very self-absorbed, and less able to think of all of the angles for something like this. He is a little blind to working out some types of consequences.... because he is so busy having to consciously work out why he shouldn't act on his often destructive whims. His consequence-brakes are not automatic, like a normal (read non-socio-cum-psycho-pathic) person, and it takes a lot of his mental life to keep within acceptable boundaries. He has to constantly think about why doing anything is either safe, or not safe, something our guilt, shame, and compassion do automatically for us.

Virtue is too consumed to think of such obvious possibilities as cleaning the floor, or moving the boxes.

But... he has one friend who isn't like that, little mister Ngo, who can think about such things.

And there in lies my possible dark humor. We'll see if I remember to do it, I guess.
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Re: TSH # 208 • Safe

Postby Mitsukara » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:31 am

I'm pretty sure we have a good guess where Vola's going to wind up, though I'm confused as to how she gets there and curious as to what she wound up doing afterwards. I certainly hope the end of the story tells us that last bit. :)

Of course, alternate splays and so on etc. etc. being what they are you could say that the Vola we saw was a different Vola, but unless it was somehow convolutedly burger-munch squishy Vola-o after all, it seems highly likely for story purposes that we can assume it was the very same as the one we know now.
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Re: TSH # 208 • Safe

Postby Wizard CaT » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:57 am

This isn't TSH # 208 at all.

Virtue certainly seems to think he has a plan. But I don't think fate agreees.
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Re: TSH # 339 • Safe

Postby Anna » Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:56 pm

Wizard CaT wrote:This isn't TSH # 208 at all. ...

Fixed!
I hope...

You see, I can be stupid nachlässig, to do some Flüchtigkeitsfehler.

Grrrmbll..................
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Re: TSH # 339 • Safe

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:46 pm

Anna wrote:
Wizard CaT wrote:This isn't TSH # 208 at all. ...

Fixed!
I hope...

You see, I can be stupid nachlässig, to do some Flüchtigkeitsfehler.

Grrrmbll..................


I don't know what "Flüchtigkeitsfehler" is, or means, but damn, it is the most awesome expletive I have heard in a long time.

"Up against the wall, Flüchtigkeitsfehler!"

" I am completely Flüchtigkeitsfehlered!"

"Flüchtigkeitsfehler You, Asshat!"

Or even "Flüchtigkeitsfehler your mother, poo-poo head!"

As a word, it's simply Flüchtigkeitsfehlerific!!!
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Re: TSH # 208 • Safe

Postby Monthenor » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:34 pm

As long as he never goes near the crate marked "Stavromula Beta" he'll be fine.

marinschild wrote:...but Virtue's a pimp and pimps don't commit suicide.

You! No! Get this...get that movie out of my head...ow...
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Re: TSH # 208 • Safe

Postby marinschild » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:53 pm

Monthenor wrote:
marinschild wrote:...but Virtue's a pimp and pimps don't commit suicide.

You! No! Get this...get that movie out of my head...ow...

But it is a good movie. Are you telling me you don't love Glam Gothic Wallace Shawn? Inconceivable!
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Re: TSH # 208 • Safe

Postby ThingOfThing » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:05 pm

Monthenor wrote:As long as he never goes near the crate marked "Stavromula Beta" he'll be fine.


I see what you did there.
There ain't no rest for the wicked, money don't grow on trees
I got bills to pay, I got mouths to feed, there ain't nothing in this world for free
I can't slow down, I can't hold back, though you know I wish I could
But there ain't no rest for the wicked, until we close our eyes for good
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Re: TSH # 339 • Safe

Postby Skatche » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:05 am

Ew, I think I stepped in some metanarrative.

Virtue should realize (or would if his character were different, perhaps) that so small a detail as wiping up footprints may be enough to completely change the outcome of so instantaneous an interaction as being shot in the face. Mind you, Mrs Reitz is taking creative liberties with chaos theory anyway, so I guess there's no problem.

Actually, come to think of it, he should also realize that just because he won't die like he saw in the time-crossing doesn't mean he won't die in some other way. Kaye could demand he move to the opposite side of the Mover for some reason, and then shoot him when he refuses.
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Re: TSH # 339 • Safe

Postby Anna » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:44 am

Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:I don't know what "Flüchtigkeitsfehler" is, or means, but damn, it is the most awesome expletive I have heard in a long time.

"Up against the wall, Flüchtigkeitsfehler!"

" I am completely Flüchtigkeitsfehlered!"

"Flüchtigkeitsfehler You, Asshat!"

Or even "Flüchtigkeitsfehler your mother, poo-poo head!"

As a word, it's simply Flüchtigkeitsfehlerific!!!

Flüchtigkeitsfehler = the dictionary says "slip"

A combination of words
Fehler=mistake
Flüchtigkeit comes from Flucht=escape
flüchtig= hasty, but also fugitive
a hasty mistake

In the usual term it means to make mistakes without any concentration.

In the last time my concentration is down, and impulse control is nearly gone.
Why?
I've got a new computer, hey fun, NO!
1. Vista
2. Software, most of it wants to be registrated online, that makes me crazy.
but the real reason is, I could have a job, but the software doesn't help me.

It would be off topic to explain it here.
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Re: TSH # 339 • Safe

Postby WarpZone » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:55 pm

Maybe I'm assuming too much, but I get the impression that in Jenny's version of time travel, grandfather paradoxes are like loops in a computer program. Moving some crates would lead to (a glimpse of the future (in which (the crates having been moved) would be )a part of their past.);

Ultimately, the only thing that can break such a loop would be:
- Choices made by the occupants of the loop, (assuming Free Will is real and the universe is acted upon by Atma.)
- Time travellers, Ascended Beings, and Others acting upon the timeline from somewhen outside of it.

If the metaverse is deterministic, or their brains operate in a deterministic way, AND this is beyond the second loop, then the loop may be permanent.

Why the second loop? The first time you travel through time, you see the future. That gives you ONE chance to change the future. If attempting to change that future results in a loop, you're fucked if the multiverse is deterministic, as long as the results of your attempts to change the future result in the future looking identical to the future you saw.

But what if you make a change? Especially a drastic change like trying to convey information to yourself?

Then you are still in a loop, but it's a procedural loop that modifies variables on every pass!

First loop: You see your future self laying on the floor, apparently shot dead.

Second Loop: Acting upon information you saw in loop 1, you put on a bullet-proof vest. You are instead stabbed to death.

Third loop: Having seen yourself stabbed to death while wearing a bulletproof vest, you instead put that money towards a gun and are very paranoid. You shoot first. It doesn't help, since your attacker is bulletproof, and now you are lying dead with no bulletproof vest on and an empty gun beside you.

Fourth loop: Having seen yourself apparently shot dead (you failed to notice the gun on the floor,) the next loop will be essentially the same as Loop 2 if the multiverse is deterministic. You are now doomed to spend eternity reactively buying guns and bulletproof vests unless and until a Tardis lands on you.

Now, if it weren't a single instant that you saw, but an hour, or if you were able to physically interact with yourself, then the amount of stuff you can learn and do in reaction to it increases. As the possibilities expand further, the likelyhood of an unbreakable loop decreases, I would think. The more changes you can make, the less likely it is that the current loop will result in information that primes the next loop identically to a previous loop. (But as eternity passes, the odds of a "loop's loop," as it were, approaches one, assuming a finite number of changes/upper limit to the granularity of changes.) Even so, you have all of Groundhog's Day to develop an equalizer for Kaye's superior strength, speed, and firepower.

But You do all of this at the cost (assuming there is a premium) of exponentially more timelines and universes being created to map all the actions and reactions. If timelines take up space... if the multiverse has limited capacity to store these scenarios... then loops are a HUGE issue and a performance drain on the multiverse. Half an hour walking around Main Street on with your past self could fill up eternity much, much faster than eternity was designed to be filled, if you're living it over and over again and making different decisions each loop, based on large swaths of experience in previous loops.

Assuming there is no limit, on the other hand?

You can go farg yourself. ^.^ Challenge your grandpa to a duel. Assassinate Hitler just for shits and giggles. Travel to the universe in which Hitler Won for business and back again for pleasure. Remake the history of the human race in your own image, just so you have a nice summer home. None of this time-travel stuff is so disastrous (to anyone other than the occupants) if the metaverse was built to store an infinite amount of self-perpetuating spaghetti.

If there's a hard limit on timeline capacity, though... yeah, then the self-modifying infinite loops become an issue.
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Re: TSH # 339 • Safe

Postby Mitsukara » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:56 am

Virtue should try to do something that seems genuinely safe, like hiding in the clothes crate and fashioning a crude sharp/blunt weapon, waiting to leap out if Kaye should come looking. Can't be too careful.

There's also the Doc Brown route, but considering if my memory is less than rubbish that it was a head shot in Texto's case, the subtle aspect that made it work for Doc would not be available.
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Re: TSH # 339 • Safe

Postby Rachel » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:32 pm

Mitsukara wrote:Virtue should try to do something that seems genuinely safe, like hiding in the clothes crate and fashioning a crude sharp/blunt weapon, waiting to leap out if Kaye should come looking. Can't be too careful.


That's what I would do if I was Virtue. ww

But I just can't picture him cowering/hiding somewhere. =< What he is doing now (staying away from the crates) already seems like it is taxing his restraint and I just can't picture him staying put if anything goes wrong either. >.<
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Re: TSH # 339 • Safe

Postby Monocheres » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:43 pm

WarpZone wrote:Then you are still in a loop, but it's a procedural loop that modifies variables on every pass!

First loop: You see your future self laying on the floor, apparently shot dead.

Second Loop: Acting upon information you saw in loop 1, you put on a bullet-proof vest. You are instead stabbed to death.

Third loop: Having seen yourself stabbed to death while wearing a bulletproof vest, you instead put that money towards a gun and are very paranoid. You shoot first. It doesn't help, since your attacker is bulletproof, and now you are lying dead with no bulletproof vest on and an empty gun beside you.

Fourth loop: Having seen yourself apparently shot dead (you failed to notice the gun on the floor,) the next loop will be essentially the same as Loop 2 if the multiverse is deterministic. You are now doomed to spend eternity reactively buying guns and bulletproof vests unless and until a Tardis lands on you.


This is called "tangling", as coined by David Gerrold in his novel The Man Who Folded Himself. It's a reciprocal and symmetrical interaction between two alternate universes. But this scenario can be described much more simply:

There are two alternate Textos, Texto A and Texto B. In Texto A's timeline, a ghostly future apparition of Texto B appears, dead from a headshot. Texto A takes measures to avoid getting killed by a headshot, only to be killed by a stab wound. Texto A's future corpse then visits Texto B's timeline as a ghostly apparition.

In Texto B's timeline, a ghostly future apparition of Texto A appears, dead from a stab wound. Texto B takes measures to avoid getting killed by a stab would, only to be killed by a headshot. Texto B's future corpse then visits Texto A's timeline as a ghostly apparition.

Two reciprocal alternative versions of the same interaction event. but such tangling interactions need not be brief, they can be quite extended.

In David Gerrold's novel, Danny Eakins is shocked to discover that his supposedly rich Uncle Jim, who raised him, dies absolutely penniless, leaving him nothing but a lousy belt ... with a digitial clock in the buckle? ... no wait, it's a time machine! He realizes his uncle did leave him absolute wealth after all. He decides to get a newspaper from tomorrow and go to the races today. But on his very first jump he is ambushed by "Don", his day-older self (?), who escorts him to the races. Later, he waits for his younger self to appear and goes through the whole day again as "Don". (They pretend to be identical twins.)

But even in that first interaction, there's some shenanigans: The first time through, Danny sees Don puts on his blue shirt, and Don tells him to wear the green shirt. But when Danny becomes Don, he asserts his free will and deliberately puts on the green shirt, telling his Danny to wear the blue one. In the end of the interaction, he winds up with two copies of the green shirt, and his blue shirt disappears from his universe entirely, since his Danny takes it ... wherever he goes.

Meanwhile, the first time through, Don shows Danny the paper from tomorrow with the headline "Lucky Twins Sweep 5-Horse Parlay." But half-way through the day, Don gets pumped tells him they'll do an 8-horse parlay instead. But when Danny goes out for some mint juleps, he returns to find a suddenly much-sobered Don who insists they keep to the original plan. The second time through, Danny -- now Don -- is emboldened by the fact that he changed his shirt color, gets pumped, and decides, what the heck, let's do the 8-horse parlay anyway. When his Danny steps out to get more mint juleps, another Don pops in from tomorrow carrying a newspaper with the headline "Suspicious Twins Take 8-Horse Parlay: D.A. Promises Investigation". Don 2 pops out again, going ... wherever ... and leaving Don 1 with two contradictory newspapers. Sobered, he tells his Danny they're going back to the original 5-horse plan.

All of these developments trouble Danny/Don ... until he finally looks at the manual function in the timebelt and reads up on "Tangling and Excising". RTFM.
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Re: TSH # 339 • Safe

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:18 pm

David Gerrold's 'The Man Who Folded Himself' is, in my personal opinion, the best time travel story ever written. It informs everything I do with regard to causality and temporal matters.

Why do I value it so highly?

It is an essentially complete treatise on every last aspect of time travel that can be imagined. That alone is enough to make it the definitive work, I think.

It has, at its core, a theory of time travel that is the most likely to be true; that is to say it is the most closely aligned with what seems to be the most likely description of reality with regard to such matters. This is all the more astounding because when he wrote it, such theory was not taken seriously, and time travel was discounted as being utterly impossible; in the time since all of this attitude has changed within theoretical physics.

Despite being both complete and potentially even accurate (to the extent that speculative fiction can be), it also succeeds as a very entertaining and satisfying story. It is one thing to use every time travel notion, it is another to examine the nature of time travel fully and well, but it is a crowning glory to be absolutely fascinating while doing so. No other time travel novel even comes close to this trifecta of wonder.

If I could recommend but one time travel story in all the world to read, it would be Gerrold's 'The Man Who Folded Himself'. Simple as that.
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Re: TSH # 339 • Safe

Postby Wic » Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:33 pm

So... Kaye is going to shoot Wai wai, but Virtue interrupts by taking the shot?
It's that my homunculus inside my head doesn't even try to understand the outside world. He thinks it's a video game and smashes the buttons at random to find the key where you shoot the lasers.
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Re: TSH # 329 • Safe

Postby Anna » Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:52 am

Now the last of my Flüchtigkeitsfehler is corrected
no # 339
Re: TSH # 329 • Safe
au weia!
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Re: TSH # 339 • Safe

Postby Monocheres » Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:46 am

Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:David Gerrold's 'The Man Who Folded Himself' is, in my personal opinion, the best time travel story ever written. It informs everything I do with regard to causality and temporal matters.

Why do I value it so highly?

It is an essentially complete treatise on every last aspect of time travel that can be imagined. That alone is enough to make it the definitive work, I think.

It has, at its core, a theory of time travel that is the most likely to be true; that is to say it is the most closely aligned with what seems to be the most likely description of reality with regard to such matters. This is all the more astounding because when he wrote it, such theory was not taken seriously, and time travel was discounted as being utterly impossible; in the time since all of this attitude has changed within theoretical physics.

Despite being both complete and potentially even accurate (to the extent that speculative fiction can be), it also succeeds as a very entertaining and satisfying story. It is one thing to use every time travel notion, it is another to examine the nature of time travel fully and well, but it is a crowning glory to be absolutely fascinating while doing so. No other time travel novel even comes close to this trifecta of wonder.

If I could recommend but one time travel story in all the world to read, it would be Gerrold's 'The Man Who Folded Himself'. Simple as that.


Wholeheartedly agree. Gerrold pretty much nailed it. Infinite alternate timelines.

Lots of time travel stories resort to the trope of "You Cannot Change the Past", i.e., the idea that you don't really have free will. If you see a future you don't like and attempt to avert it, the very actions you take wind up causing you to fulfill your destiny, because of some information you're missing. Even a case of "tangling" can fit this mold, if you generalize the idea of a deterministic causal loop to a deterministic causal tangle. But in our everyday world we have free will, or at least the illusion of it. I've never been able to accept the notion that time-travel would negate that. So of course you can change the past (Gerrold called it "excising"). But then again, it's not really your past, just the past of a parallel universe that your actions create.

But there are still some difficulties even with that model. Let's look again at that first case of excising in Gerrold's novel: Don 2 experiences life in a world where he pushes it too far and wins millions in an 8-horse parlay, but then attracts too much attention from the authorities. This is a world where no future Don ever came back to stop him. He decides he doesn't like the consequences, and deliberately chooses to jump back and change things. Does this destroy his original universe? Why would it? I surmise that his home time line would continue to exist and he would simply disappear from that universe forever, without a trace. But now he's in Don 1's universe, which he essentially creates by popping in on Don 1 and showing him a newspaper. Where is Don 2 going to go now? If he jumps forward in time, presumably he'll still be in Don 1's universe and the two of them will have to keep dealing with each other. They might even interfere with each other. If he jumps back even further, he might change things even more and spawn yet another universe, but he's still going to be a stranger there.

To his credit, Gerrold does address this: Danny goes on to meet more and more alternate versions of himself. Enough alternates accumulate in his timeline that he can eventually host a huge on-going party of Dannies. He can even play poker games against himself, because the others aren't necessarily his exact future or past self.

I guess that works ...

I wonder what happened in Don 2's original universe after he disappeared? How about this for a series of headlines:

[1974] Feds Expand Track Racketeering Probe: Duplicate Greenbacks Found After Mysterious Twins Disappearance ...
[1975] UCLA Study Declares Twin Dollars "Identical Down to Molecular Level" : Time Travel or Cloning? ...
[1977] MIT Scientists Confirm "Timequakes": Subtle "Temporal Aftershocks" Around Eakins Disappearance Site ...
[1992] CERN Timejumps Lab Rat 5 Minutes: Fermilab Vows Redoubled Effort to Win Time Race ...
[1999] Tempus Fugit Corporation to Go IPO ...
[2008] Consumer Reports Review: Forget TARDIS Vista! Timebelt 2.0 Cleans Its Clock! ...
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