TSH #341 • Trapped


Kaye Haychold's ambitious plan

TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Monocheres » Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:42 pm

Never considered myself claustrophobic, but frankly the thought of being Trapped like this gives me the creeping willies.

It now becomes clearer why so robust a physical specimen as our valiant Pho would be seen (in this famous scene) reduced to hands and knees, with Wai struggling to help him stand. Being forced to sit in such a cramped position for hours, and then to sleep upright, is incredibly debilitating. In fact, I'd wager many here would call that torture. Fortunately, authors -- and creatrices -- are exempt from prosecution under international law for inflicting such treatment upon their creatures. ;-)

I suppose Wai has the better of the situation right now. At least he can lie down, sort of, if he stretches his feet out onto Pho's lap.

Edit: Speaking of that famous scene (as well as its immediate successor), it seems that Wai has managed -- in a retcon-ish sort of way -- to doff shirt and suspenders in favor of tank top and gloves, perhaps out of courtesy to the concerns of our friend Nai_Calus. It appears that our intrepid Creatrix has been busy with more than just old text... Or should we now re-dub her Editrix?

//]

Edit 2: However,Pajamaman's memory of that scene still appears to be from an alternate timeline.
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Skatche » Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:16 am

Monocheres wrote:Never considered myself claustrophobic, but frankly the thought of being Trapped like this gives me the creeping willies.

It now becomes clearer why so robust a physical specimen as our valiant Pho would be seen (in this famous scene) reduced to hands and knees, with Wai struggling to help him stand. Being forced to sit in such a cramped position for hours, and then to sleep upright, is incredibly debilitating.


A thought: what if Virtue's already dead by the time our heroes bust out of their containment? It wouldn't be as satisfying as some more ironic twist, but it is a possibility. Maybe he died trying to stop Kaye on his own (although, again, I'd more enjoy the irony if he's still on side with Kaye).

Edit 2: However,Pajamaman's memory of that scene still appears to be from an alternate timeline.


Shh! You'll collapse the wave function.
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby draque » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:24 am

Chou seems to be back to her senses in the Virtue-dead scene, so there's at least a bit more twisting and turning that has to take place before this scene can happen.
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Monocheres » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:55 am

draque wrote:Chou seems to be back to her senses in the Virtue-dead scene, so there's at least a bit more twisting and turning that has to take place before this scene can happen.


Think about what Chou's been through: Her elderly, basilisk-riddled body was ripped apart by an explosion. Her head suffered not only the concussive forces of that blast, but also the trauma of a hard landing on a rocky surface, with who knows how many bounces. Then many seconds or minutes without oxygen (or whatever traton passes for that in the Trys universe) until Vola found her. Yet, from that head alone, severely damaged as it must have been, her whole body was regenerated to youthful vigor, and apparently full mental capacity. She is still suspended in the same remarkably anentropic electanic fluid with which that feat of technology-indistiguishable-from-magic was accomplished.

I would think the affects of uploading one's personality into the ether (or whatever it was that she did with that Ascendence-For-Dummies program) would be minor in comparison to everything else Chou suffered. Even if reading out the data entailed burning out every synapse in her brain, as long as the synaptic geometry was intact, I would think a period of time bathing in that miracle fluid would be sufficient to regenerate the neurotransmitters and give us back Chou. Or perhaps, a Chou.

Remember, in UJ, Chou experienced a period where her hyperintelligent, flat-affect ("straw Vulcan") personality went off-line, when Lupiko's broomstick cracked one of Chou's crystals, during that mutual rescue as they were plummeting off the worldplate. This regressed Chou to her to her natural sweet, innocent infant personality. Later, the formidable Rectrix-to-be mind regenerated and the precious child personality disappeared (with emotional consequences for Lupiko and Lili). I find it perfectly plausible that Chou's mind could have reconstituted itself again, by the time Pho and WaiWai escape their trap -- but which mind?

This is all assuming that there isn't more to it. I have already put forth the theory that OoO is only a Xerox of Chou's mind (enhanced with the features of Ascendance), and that the meat Chou could still retain her original mind. But can it really work that way in the Trys universe? The Krawlni told Kaye's civilization that souls--"atmas"--were "real". Is an atma something like an electanic geist? Can you really Xerox one? Or can it only move from one body to another? (Or, with Ascendance, to no body at all.) When Vola said that Chou's "corpus" was "just empty," my theorizing moved in that direction ... but the jury is still out.

For one thing, there's the fact that we're dealing with an infinite multiverse of alternate splays, many (all?) with duplicates of the same people. Compared to that massive level of duplication, I would think a simple personality-copy-and-upload would be a trivial thing.

Then again, does every alternate version of a given person have his/her own individual atma? Or do all the alternates somehow share the same atma, spread out across them hyperdimensionally? That might explain the mechanism behind the cascade effect...
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Monocheres » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:22 pm

Skatche wrote:
Monocheres wrote:Edit 2: However, Pajamaman's memory of that scene still appears to be from an alternate timeline.

Shh! You'll collapse the wave function.


... And I see now that I have indeed collapsed it. Or rather our beloved Creatrix has. It appears she has deftly transported all of us into a parallel splay containing a Virtue remarkably identical in every respect to the previous one, except with memories of future WaiWai wearing a tank top undershirt and gloves. Well navigated, Aealacreatrananda!

Thus doth our Creatrix perfect Her Creation. (Or should that be, thus doth our Editrix perfect Her Edition?)

//]
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Plasman » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:22 am

Do Kaye and Virtue know that those two have hitched a ride? ;]
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:39 am

It is a wee bit difficult to keep every tiny detail of wardrobe perfectly consistent when doing a temporal folding story that takes more than three years of writing and drawing merely to get to the other side of the fold.

Frankly, in terms of consistency, I rather think I am doing pretty good. Considering.

And if I have to perform minor visual retcon surgery to achieve a cleaner match to the temporal loop edges, then dammit, I will.

Still, somewhere, cut brutally out of sequential time, are one pair of cartoon suspenders and a cartoon shirt with rolled-up sleeves.

It is eerie to contemplate their ontological status. Shudder.
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Monocheres » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:38 am

Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:It is a wee bit difficult to keep every tiny detail of wardrobe perfectly consistent when doing a temporal folding story that takes more than three years of writing and drawing merely to get to the other side of the fold.

Frankly, in terms of consistency, I rather think I am doing pretty good. Considering.

And if I have to perform minor visual retcon surgery to achieve a cleaner match to the temporal loop edges, then dammit, I will.

Still, somewhere, cut brutally out of sequential time, are one pair of cartoon suspenders and a cartoon shirt with rolled-up sleeves.

It is eerie to contemplate their ontological status. Shudder.


I'm sincerely sorry if my friendly teasing rubbed you the wrong way. I actually think you did a masterful job of it! You are well within the realm of authorial prerogative, of course. Sometimes I fancy that by being a gadfly I can goad you to reach perfection, but that's totally my pretension. I understand that the danger in trying to be too funny is to become a nuisance.

Oh, and that shirt and suspenders are now safely located in Tumbolia. Along with all those socks my dryer ate...
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Skatche » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:53 am

Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:It is a wee bit difficult to keep every tiny detail of wardrobe perfectly consistent when doing a temporal folding story that takes more than three years of writing and drawing merely to get to the other side of the fold.

Frankly, in terms of consistency, I rather think I am doing pretty good. Considering.

And if I have to perform minor visual retcon surgery to achieve a cleaner match to the temporal loop edges, then dammit, I will.


Hey - if you're a theoretician in general relativity, surgery is all there is to time travel anyway.
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:09 pm

Tumbolia is awesome! I've never heard of that one before! Yay!
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Monocheres » Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:44 pm

Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:Tumbolia is awesome! I've never heard of that one before! Yay!


Then that must mean you've never heard of Douglas Hofstader's magnum opus, Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid, either ... or perhaps you just never brought your wheelbarrow along with you to cart it home from the bookstore. I can hardly fathom that, it seems right up your alley! I HIGHLY recommend it!
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Coda » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:51 pm

Monocheres wrote:
Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:Tumbolia is awesome! I've never heard of that one before! Yay!


Then that must mean you've never heard of Douglas Hofstader's magnum opus, Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid, either ... or perhaps you just never brought your wheelbarrow along with you to cart it home from the bookstore. I can hardly fathom that, it seems right up your alley! I HIGHLY recommend it!


Much love for GEB -- I haven't read it myself, but I've read a lot of excerpts -- and another series of articles by the same author, Metamagical Themas. I need to find both of them in dead-tree editions.
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Plasman » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:35 am

Mr. Mono' is correct.
"GEB:EGB" is a very very great book, and is definitely relevant to the interests of those who frequent the forum. I only wish I owned a copy of it myself.
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Coda » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:46 pm

Plasman wrote:Mr. Mono' is correct.
"GEB:EGB" is a very very great book, and is definitely relevant to the interests of those who frequent the forum. I only wish I owned a copy of it myself.


I picked up GEB:EGB at Borders yesterday. It's quite a hefty tome -- larger than I expected -- and its content is quite a bit more "hard logic" than I was expecting given the tone of the work. Still good stuff.
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Monocheres » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:44 pm

Coda wrote:I picked up GEB:EGB at Borders yesterday.


My, what strong muscles you must have!

//]

Coda wrote:... its content is quite a bit more "hard logic" than I was expecting given the tone of the work.


[Mr. Rogers voice:] Kids, I want you to know that you are very, very good neighbors. That's a Truth. But it's a Truth that I can't prove. Not with Number Theory, anyway ... Can you say "arithmoquinification"? ... nice try ...
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Coda » Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:50 pm

Monocheres wrote:My, what strong muscles you must have!

Be nice. :wink:
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Re: TSH #341 • Trapped

Postby Plasman » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:13 am

What's great about the book is that it's not just about mathematics, and it's not just about music, and it's not just about number theory, Zen Budddhism, tesselation, self-reference, how the mind works, etcetera... It's about how all of those things fit together, like some big jigsaw puzzle.
You probably won't understand everything in the book the first time, but stick with it. And also check out the resource materials and discussions about GEB online if you want to find out more.

EDIT: that Wikipedia page also leads to this interesting Java game...
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