#284 History


Kaye Haychold's ambitious plan

Re: #284 History

Postby Monthenor » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:58 pm

I think I'd like it even more if, as To Save Her continued its time-changing quest, Jennifer was actually going back and updating all these old Pastel Defenders with more and more differences and details. It's the Internet; who's to say she hasn't?
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Re: #284 History

Postby strange_person » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:23 pm

Jenn is. That's not how she operates.
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Re: #284 History

Postby Volair » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:23 pm

Yeah, man, JDR's got artistic scruples. She ain't gonna Lucas that comic, no matter how tasty the opportunity might be.

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Re: #284 History

Postby Wanderer » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:44 pm

Monthenor wrote:I think I'd like it even more if, as To Save Her continued its time-changing quest, Jennifer was actually going back and updating all these old Pastel Defenders with more and more differences and details. It's the Internet; who's to say she hasn't?

No, that bow was definitely there the first time. I remember seeing it, thought it was odd, but decided it wasn't worth wasting too much thought on at the time.
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Re: #284 History

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:15 pm

Volair wrote:Yeah, man, JDR's got artistic scruples. She ain't gonna Lucas that comic, no matter how tasty the opportunity might be.


I don't Lucas my comics. The worst I do is correct spelling errors if they are pointed out. I can't stand reworking anything.

You shouldn't ever have to, if your worlds are real in your mind. If they are real enough, everything just takes care of itself and fits like causal puzzle pieces automatically. Or so I have found.
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Re: #284 History

Postby Monthenor » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:59 pm

Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:
Volair wrote:Yeah, man, JDR's got artistic scruples. She ain't gonna Lucas that comic, no matter how tasty the opportunity might be.


I don't Lucas my comics. The worst I do is correct spelling errors if they are pointed out. I can't stand reworking anything.

You shouldn't ever have to, if your worlds are real in your mind. If they are real enough, everything just takes care of itself and fits like causal puzzle pieces automatically. Or so I have found.


I didn't mean it in a Lucas sense, ew. I meant it in a playful sense that the entire reality of her comic was shifting and also affecting the comics around it. It would be a ton of work but I'd find it immensely satisfying.
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Re: #284 History

Postby Wizard CaT » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:05 pm

More of a PDH isn't really over yet, until TSH is over.
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Re: #284 History

Postby Anna » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:03 pm

Time to teach foreign readers, even if it impossible that I'll ever learn it.

What is "to Lucas it"?
???
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Re: #284 History

Postby Tychomonger » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:03 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ch ... e-releases

He mucked about and changed things when he rereleased the original Star Wars trilogy. It raised the ire of many people.
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Re: #284 History

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:32 am

My opinion on 'Lucasing' - on changing a creation (movie, book, comic, whatever) long after it has become part of the culture (whether that culture is small or large):

I think it is very wrong.

I think that once an artist creates something, and releases it into the world, so that it becomes important to others (hopefully a work of art becomes important to others... kind of the point, really), I truly feel that it starts to belong to more than just the artist. A beloved work becomes more and more the property of Mankind as a whole, of the fans that love it, and less and less the property of the artist(s) that created it. I'm not saying artists shouldn't get paid or lose property ownership or anything. I speak purely in terms of the ownership of essence, of the abstract quality of something, of what makes it live in the minds of others. Of what made the work beloved.

I'm also not saying that an artist can't put out a different version, just so long as the original is still available. That's fine.

But to just change a beloved work, especially a classic work, long after the day it was released, and make that the only one available, the new only version... that is just plain wrong.

The original was loved for a reason, mistakes, warts, and all. Those mistakes or failings are invaluable. They show what was possible once, what people did, they are history, both of the work, and of the artist. It is through that history that any meaningful dialog about the progress of the art and the artist are even possible.

But when someone like Spielberg up and digitally erases all of the guns from a movie like 'E.T.', primarily because of current politics about violence and children or whatever current cause is big... that is just bastardization. Those guns were there for a reason, they made the threat of the government agents have weight, they made a statement about violence in mankind, they had value. Replacing them with walky-talkies just weakens everything, ruining what power it had.

When Lucas makes it clear that Han shoots second, he robs the character of being a rogue, an outlaw. That was the point of the character of Han Solo, he is a bit of a bastard who is redeemed. Make him noble from the start, and redemption becomes meaningless, and the value of the beloved character is lost. Star Wars is a very beloved film, and ripping at its carcass hurts the culture as a whole; worse, it undermines the worth of Lucas himself, at least the younger, more talented Lucas. Artists often have a shelf life, even if they cannot accept that horrifying fact. Sometimes they just get old and burn out. Sometimes permanently (Mel Brooks, I am looking at you). That is when they need to just stop screwing with things and move on.

In my opinion, the essence of art only truly belongs to the artist during that window of time in which the art is first crafted. Once the work is done, that is that. It is over. It belongs to the world now, and there is nothing the artist can do but screw it up by messing with it once the label 'done' has been applied. Revisionism is evil whether it is about history, or art. What is done is done. Accept that, learn from it.

That is what the past is for, and why preserving history is important; history is what makes learning possible at all. Change history, and learning becomes meaningless, growth becomes not progress but arbitrary change.

Once you complete making something; a painting, a movie, a universe... leave it to the fans. 'Done' is the moment the artist loses the right to interfere or change anything anymore. To change something beyond 'done' is an abomination, a hurt to everyone involved; artist, audience, and the spirit of the work itself. Go make something new. Done is done.

That is what I think, anyway.
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Re: #284 History

Postby Anna » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:26 am

I didn't know that "to Lucas it" was becoming a proverb in the USA.

Well, I can live with the most changes in Star Wars.
Extended city views, some more ships...
I like that.
The Story? ... Ach du meine Güte. Oh je, oh je, herrjemine ...
Jabba the Hut was originally filmed and didn't make it in the final release.
I remember this cutted scene in the Comic edition. (and of course, from the novelization).
Well I hope it was there, in a later comic adventure between the three movies in the 80's Jabba was shown as a humanoid Alien species, but not as the known Jabba from the third movie.
(Still using #1 #2 #3 from the eighties)
But this ring at the death star exlosion... for what?
Looks fine, and?
This ring was invented at Star Trek VI.
And after it, it was used until the death of every FX specialist.
If there has to be a change, they should had done a newer WOW-effect.

And Spielberg did lucasing before Lucas did it.
Close Encounter was reworked, the VHS Edition wasn't the one I'd seen in the theatre.
I was disapointed, so the satirical view of Richard Dreyfuss's neighbours was nearly eliminated.
They were all lawn mowing at the same time.
My old Super8 20minutes Version was indeed closer to the old original.
And ET?
It's not in my collection, because the changes.
I've seen it in the cinema with my sister in the afternoon, the theatre was filled up with children, and we had a lot of fun.
(in the early eighties)

The directors cut fever, allright, first the cinema, 6 months later the special DVD release, I can also live with it.
mostly it was planed this during the filming.
Lord of the rings...
As a fan we knew, it would be published a longer version
What about Blade Runner?
The first version, the voice over had strong textlines.
The end scenes from Shining, I noticed it at my first visit in the cinema.

The second release the directors cut, I missed the voice over at first, but then it was ok.
The third edition?
I didn't watched it. Maybe I will buy the DVD edition in the next months...

I've got the Alien Box, all four movies, in the original theatrical relaes and in an extended cut version.
I confess, I have never watched the extended versions of it, except Aliens by J.Cammeron, which was a real deeper storyline.
Allright the fouth movie also, but there was no surprising new view of it, well, the end scene, a ruined earth, dust and debris, the crunched Eiffel Tower of Paris, a wonderfull final picture, (the director was french).
A great hopeless and depressed view of the future of mankind. I loved it!
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Re: #284 History

Postby Gideon_Wells » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:56 pm

I hate things like this when it comes to adapations when there is no reason.

*I loved V for Vendetta the movie, but after seeing the comic I can't stand to watch it. It angers me that they turned a battle between Living under a dictator, but living, vs a terrorist who may lead to extinction to a Democrat/Republican like satire. You have no idea how much I fear for the Watchmen once I realized the 9-11 like aspect of it.
*Lord of the Rings the movies, good, until I saw their attempt to fix their "Tom Bombadil" problem with Fangor in the extended version. Everything else was its own movie continuity, but they changed it to appease fans and thus ruined any connection to why Bombadil could be argued as important for a gimmick.

This suggested instance of "Lucasing" suggested I would have liked to have seen if this work was setup in a way so it would be logical/fine. Meaning it would be part of the greater work. However, with the UJ/Pastel/TSH all have seemed for a while to have a type of pre-destiny. Maybe.

So, masterpiece work with all these hidden foreshadowed events.

EDIT:

Which brings up a question. Since I didn't start reading the Jenniverse stuff till near the beginning of Pastel, and only rarely lurk these forums the banner at the top of these forum has me wondering.

Is Chou dark skinned, tanned or given darker skin for another reason? If the former, is she normally depicted noticeably lighter in the UJ strips because of medium limitations? What I understand of the universal physics of Trys I have trouble thinking tans would be prevalent.
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Re: #284 History

Postby draque » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:13 am

Gideon_Wells wrote:I loved V for Vendetta the movie, but after seeing the comic I can't stand to watch it.


A lot of people seem to be pretty split on it... Honestly I never liked the comic very much in the first place. It felt to me like it was based on a series of coincidences that were absurdly unlikely. When the movie came out, I was only dragged to it by friends, and anticipated that it would be similar to the comic... but I found that the elements I had disliked in the comic were changed entirely, which I enjoyed.
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Re: #284 History

Postby Ashes » Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:22 pm

Gideon_Wells wrote:You have no idea how much I fear for the Watchmen once I realized the 9-11 like aspect of it.


Other people will dwell on the (meager) parallels between The Watchmen and the events surrounding September 11th, 2001. Unless the makers of the film change the story to reinforce that view, I won't care. If they mangle the story, then I'll care because they mangled the story -- not because of what their version of story is about, and not because of what other people got out of the film.

*SPOILERS*
Basically, so long as they don't make Ozymandious a terrorist or a politician, I don't care what aspects of the movie other people choose to dwell on.
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Re: #284 History

Postby draque » Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:36 pm

This is the same director that brought us Sin City, a near word for word translation of the comic. I tend to think that what they keep will be nearly identical to the comic (with things like costumes updated, which I have no objection to). The question is what they're going to remove, and there's no getting around the fact that they'll have to remove stuff. Even if they peg this at 2.5-3 hours, there simply won't be time for them to take the entire series of events in Watchmen and translate them into a movie.
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Re: #284 History

Postby strange_person » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:10 pm

Well, like in Lord of the Rings, there's a lot of exposition that could be trimmed into DVD extras without compromising the coherence of the main plot.
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Re: #284 History

Postby Ashes » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:13 pm

They've already said they're removing The Black Freighter (and animating it for a bonus on the DVD).

The false-document background data doesn't really work in a film. A lot of that may slip into the background scenery, as a bonus for people who like to watch movies with their fingers on the pause button.

The scenes with the newspaper vendor will probably be condensed to one or two scenes. Two is my guess. He'll probably show up in the background a few times in addition to those.
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Re: #284 History

Postby strange_person » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:46 pm

The Black Freighter/newsvendor thing would make a perfect "short feature," just like the thing with Jack-Jack and the babysitter in The Incredibles, or the legend of the Crimson Permanent Assurance in Monty Python's Meaning of Life.
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Re: #284 History

Postby Ashes » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:54 pm

Or like Gotham Knights with The Dark Knight.
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Re: #284 History

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:17 pm

I should mention, Anna, that 'To Lucas' something is not in common usage in America. It is.... nerd-speak. Subculture phrase. The kind of thing only Geeks and Freaks like the folks here (bright, interested in science fiction, fantasy, science and odd things) would say. Most Americans would likely just go 'what?' if they heard the phrase. It would have to be explained to them.

Actually, most Americans would probably just say 'Whaaaaa???' to almost anything said to them, followed by a vacant stare and possibly some drooling. Most Americans are not what one would call overly educated or overly aware. In my opinion.
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