Fun With Linovection


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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby NMcCoy » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:34 pm

Alfador: As has been stated by Jenny and Alikat, you can't treat linovection like a force - linovection vectors don't add, for example; the weight of a stack of objects is equal to the heaviest object in that stack (according to Alikat, only indirectly confirmed by Jenny). I do need to do some more "experiments"; as it is, I see some points where the math as I understand it might not be internally consistent. You can say what you like about Trys not being a binary universe, but it seems to me that the scientific method clearly still applies there - making predictions, and then testing them and getting consistent positive or negative results.

Also: Wouldn't the Tetris-style linovection proposed by Alikat also mean that things don't roll downhill, too?
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strange_person wrote:The underlying problem is that people in sufficiently hostile and/or chaotic circumstances drift back toward the R-type reproduction strategy.
They...collect colored orbs to influence the development of their somewhat-detachable attack pod?
Man, if kids could shoot wave lasers I'd be trying to have one.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:44 pm

Tiny correction: The weight of a stack is equal to the weight of the heaviest item in the stack, plus a tiny bit of additional "weight" for any geist that has built up between the components of the stack. The longer a stack remains a stack, the more of a stackengeist it ferschlugginer develops mit der fistengrabben und gefingerpoken.

And yeah, a ball would only roll if you started it rolling, even on a hill.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alfador » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:45 pm

NMcCoy wrote:Alfador: As has been stated by Jenny and Alikat,


Yes, and I apologize for not deleting all the stuff I wrote before I read Jenny and Alikat's physics explanations, and instead editing the post to give my reaction, pulling out of further commentary on the topic. I just prefer generally not to delete things that I say unless I REALLY don't want them to be seen anymore. I apologize for any confusion that results from this half-hearted policy.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby NMcCoy » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:19 am

Alikat wrote:The weight of a stack is equal to the weight of the heaviest item in the stack, plus a tiny bit of additional "weight" for any geist that has built up between the components of the stack.

Image

I've been wondering if you'd make this exact claim. This clearly contradicts earlier information provided by Jennifer.

Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:
NMcCoy wrote:Might it be thus observed that a stack of old papers (each with its own electanic geist) would become lighter over time as it merged into a "stack of papers" object, with a single electanic geist of the same cross-section?

Yes, this would be a logical continuation of the principle.

Image

In other words, demonstrating the opposite effect that you claim will happen - as the stack of papers acquires a collective geist with the same cross-section, it becomes lighter, demonstrating that linovective weight is indeed being transmitted through the individual sheets of paper, making the stack heavier than the faintly-merged "object".
Monthenor wrote:
strange_person wrote:The underlying problem is that people in sufficiently hostile and/or chaotic circumstances drift back toward the R-type reproduction strategy.
They...collect colored orbs to influence the development of their somewhat-detachable attack pod?
Man, if kids could shoot wave lasers I'd be trying to have one.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:27 pm

Nope, Jenny was just agreeing on the PRINCIPLE involved, it's a logical extension of the principle. But on the practical side, there is NO difference in Linovective "weight" between a single sheet of paper and a stack of paper. Jenny also demonstrated that with the diagrams showing Linovective stria intersecting objects. In practical terms, if stacking worked the way you keep insisting it must, then a stack of papers would be super heavy, way heavier than a person of the same exact size. There would be no books, only scrolls that are stored and carried vertically, and that can only have a small section unrolled at a time. Women wouldn't be able to hang their wash on the line, or even make the beds, because clothing would weigh as much as people and sheets would weigh as much as beds. Climbing under a blanket would be like crawling underneath the mattress, only worse, as a blanket large enough to cover you would be heavier than you are, even if it's made of gossamer.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby NMcCoy » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:08 pm

Alikat wrote:Climbing under a blanket would be like crawling underneath the mattress, only worse, as a blanket large enough to cover you would be heavier than you are, even if it's made of gossamer.

Why isn't it, then?

Also, you're misrepresenting my position - I've accepted the new "geist" explanation, and that it's the 2D projection of that geist that affects linovective weight. A book wouldn't be unduly heavy, as it'd have a coherent geist. And hanging laundry would have a very small area, weighing little more than the clothesline itself. I even accept that a stack of things weighs less than the same things spread out, perhaps due to "geistic overlap". What I have a problem with is a universe where Newton's Third Law visibly applies to almost everything in the canon, and then suddenly stops applying when linovection gets involved.
Monthenor wrote:
strange_person wrote:The underlying problem is that people in sufficiently hostile and/or chaotic circumstances drift back toward the R-type reproduction strategy.
They...collect colored orbs to influence the development of their somewhat-detachable attack pod?
Man, if kids could shoot wave lasers I'd be trying to have one.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:38 pm

That's because you insist on seeing it as a Mundis-type force, isn't that obvious? Inertia and Gravity are both coupled to Mass in Mundis, but Linovection is NOT coupled to Mass in Trys, but Inertia IS tied to Mass in Trys. So Linovection will act very weird because it is not coupled with Mass, and therefore Linovection interacts with Inertia in less intuitive ways.

And yes, a blanket probably is HEAVY in Trys, but luckily you don't really need one because there's no wind and no real weather other than some rain and some Shatterel. You don't even need a bed really, I bet you could lay back and sleep on a row of spikes without any problem. But I bet it's easier to sleep upright than recumbent in trys, since you aren't as heavy when you're upright. :)
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby strange_person » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:43 pm

If all that's true, why do Jellese cities collapse when shattered?

What about density? Does a circular sheet of paper laid out flat weigh as much as a solid ball of iron with the same radius?
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby NMcCoy » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:20 pm

No, because paper has a lower "tratonic weight" than iron. Presumably. A ball of paper also weighs less than a thin sheet of iron.
Monthenor wrote:
strange_person wrote:The underlying problem is that people in sufficiently hostile and/or chaotic circumstances drift back toward the R-type reproduction strategy.
They...collect colored orbs to influence the development of their somewhat-detachable attack pod?
Man, if kids could shoot wave lasers I'd be trying to have one.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby strange_person » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:31 pm

That is inconsistent with Alikat's statement about gossamer.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:05 am

You'd have to ask Jenny about that one. She said I was right about something I said about 20 posts ago, by now I'm sure I'm on shakier ground than that. :p
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Sumpfpflanze » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:34 pm

How densely do the linovective stripes run? Wouldn't there be VERY SLIGHT alterations in your perceived "weight" on a normal horizontal linear motion, as at some point your body would be just a bit off from the outermost stripes on each side, but as you moved as much as the distance to either one of these, that would be a new stripe going through you? On a very long rectangle object with perfectly straight edges that would count to many more or less stripes depending on the exact position?

Or are these "lines" just metaphorical, and the actual linovective "force" would be "shaped" like a solid invisible wall, and instead of "number" of the cross secting lines the "weight" determinator would be the total area of the object that faces upwards (i.e. no "empty" point on any given area without any "stripe" running towards it)?

Sorry if this has been made clear already somewhere, I'm new and haven't studied these that much...

But one thing I can say, Trys is very interesting. :3

Sorry also if I made any illigiblities above, considering the delicate nature of the topic, for I'm not a native English speaker.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Skatche » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:22 pm

My guess, Sumpfpflanze, is that, like the "lines of force" of a magnet, the linovective striations fill space. So there would be no deviation in weight based on horizontal motion. In other words, there are an infinite number of lines passing through any horizontal square inch section, each of them imparting an infinitesimal amount of linovective "force".
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alfador » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:14 pm

Skatche wrote:My guess, Sumpfpflanze, is that, like the "lines of force" of a magnet, the linovective striations fill space. So there would be no deviation in weight based on horizontal motion. In other words, there are an infinite number of lines passing through any horizontal square inch section, each of them imparting an infinitesimal amount of linovective "force".


Or, equivalently, the distance between "lines" is exactly equal to the granularity of space: the smallest measurable distance between two distinct points.
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