Fun With Linovection


Kaye Haychold's ambitious plan

Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:38 am

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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby strange_person » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:52 am

So, it would be possible to distinguish a genuine ktlikitkaktl artifact from a contemporary forgery of the exact same size and material composition by weighing the two on a sufficiently precise scale?
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:03 pm

strange_person wrote:So, it would be possible to distinguish a genuine ktlikitkaktl artifact from a contemporary forgery of the exact same size and material composition by weighing the two on a sufficiently precise scale?


No. Matter entering a new universe is mapped onto the new table of the elements. This was discussed back in the days of the original Unicorn Jelly.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby NMcCoy » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:20 pm

Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:No. Matter entering a new universe is mapped onto the new table of the elements. This was discussed back in the days of the original Unicorn Jelly.

I think you misunderstood the question. The old and new artifact both have identical composition (being now made of Trys-stuff), but the original has an older geist, making it heavier ("Mysteries of Linovection," Reitz 2009), so the answer would indeed be "yes" by your explanation given. (Such hubris, NMcCoy! Correcting the inventor of a universe on the behavior of said universe!)


Fun fact: The word "analysis", etymologically, literally means "to break up". The problem with a fantasy universe presented in a scientific way is that I'm prone to scrutinize it through a scientific lens to figure out how it works, which has turned me into some sort of theory-basilisk, breaking things by staring at them too hard.
Don't feel bad about it though, Jenny; the same thing happened with actual gravity, after all, with Aristotle and Galileo and Newton and Einstein. Which is not at all to put myself on the same level as them, of course - just pointing out that this process is similar, and perhaps also that scientific reasoning and thought experiments are universally (multiversally?) applicable. And simple explanations can indeed sometimes be more useful than comprehensive ones; there's no need to explain Einstein's gravity to beginning physics students, when Newton's model works just as well for everyday scales. The difficulty you face is that I've been asking Einsteiny questions of your Galileo first-pass of physics.
#_@

Anyway, this seems workable, though I have a few more scientific inquiries to make of this new explanation.

Might it be thus observed that a stack of old papers (each with its own electanic geist) would become lighter over time as it merged into a "stack of papers" object, with a single electanic geist of the same cross-section?

What keeps buildings from merging with the geist of the worldplate itself, becoming effectively weightless?

(Also, when I have some free time, I plan to make a Dr. Alchemist craft project - build a paper linowheel! Fun With Linovection, indeed! :lol: )
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strange_person wrote:The underlying problem is that people in sufficiently hostile and/or chaotic circumstances drift back toward the R-type reproduction strategy.
They...collect colored orbs to influence the development of their somewhat-detachable attack pod?
Man, if kids could shoot wave lasers I'd be trying to have one.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:54 pm

NMcCoy wrote:I think you misunderstood the question. The old and new artifact both have identical composition (being now made of Trys-stuff), but the original has an older geist, making it heavier ("Mysteries of Linovection," Reitz 2009), so the answer would indeed be "yes" by your explanation given. (Such hubris, NMcCoy! Correcting the inventor of a universe on the behavior of said universe!)



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Woah! You are absolutely correct, NMcCoy!
Sorry, I did fail to understand. The difference would be minute indeed, but with sufficiently sensitive instruments, it could be detected.

Might it be thus observed that a stack of old papers (each with its own electanic geist) would become lighter over time as it merged into a "stack of papers" object, with a single electanic geist of the same cross-section?


Yes, this would be a logical continuation of the principle. The connection between the sheets would be very weak, however, being no more than mere proximity with no chemical bonds, but there would be a very, very faint association between the sheets and each other given enough time. This effect, with terribly sensitive instrumentation, should be possible to detect.

What keeps buildings from merging with the geist of the worldplate itself, becoming effectively weightless?


Nothing. Especially if the buildings are well bonded into the stuff of the plate. It does take a bit of time, or requires a bit of technological help to speed the effect up; this would be part of the reason why many-kilometers high towers dominate the far future landscape of Tryslmaistan.

Naturally, if this connection were broken the effect would dissipate. On this scale, possibly with a noticeable electanic burst.

There would also need to be accommodation for the vagaries of electanic charge capacitance and discharge with regard to such super-cities, once thus merged with the gestalt of the Worldplate; I imagine the Tryslmaistan equivalent of lightning rods, more like shatterel disbursing charge converters or somesuch.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:25 pm

Regarding the thousand sheets of paper and the horizontally-sliced cheese, tell me, if you have a train coasting downhill, does it coast any faster if you add a few cars full of lead to it? Ah, it doesn't, does it?

Linovection isn't gravity. It isn't additive because it is not based on Mass. When Pho was carrying Kaye, if Virtue, Wai, and Vola had piled on top, it would have been no heavier, but the inertia would have more than doubled, so starting, stopping, and balancing would have been harder. But his footprints in the sand would be no deeper.

If you had that proverbial stack of a thousand sheets of paper, each paper would exert the same force upon the next sheet down, but would NOT add it's force to the next sheet after that. Linovective force is not cumulative. The combined effect on the desk is the same as a single sheet of paper. All the sheets are essentially accelerating in the direction of the Linovective Force at the same rate as each other.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby NMcCoy » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:58 pm

Sorry, Alikat, but I don't buy that.
First of all: The reason the train doesn't go faster is because, in Mundis, the force of gravity is exactly balanced by the inertial mass of the train. Adding 1kg of mass to the train increases the force of gravity on the train by 9.8kgm/s^2; because the mass of the train has increased by 1kg, the acceleration remains the same.

"It isn't additive because it doesn't depend on mass" is nonsensical. The force of a stack of papers does need to be transmitted, or else the universe's physics breaks in very strange ways:
You have a balsa wood bridge that gets crushed by a lead weight.
You put a sheet of paper atop the bridge, and then the weight, and it stays intact, because the force of the lead weight isn't transmitted to the bridge?

I can accept that perpetual motion is trivial in Trys, and that sideways things fall faster. I can't accept non-additive forces for any definition of "force" that we can relate to from our universe. According to Jenny, inertia, mass, and acceleration are all as we understand them - this necessitates "force" (defined as mass times acceleration) meaning the same thing as well.
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strange_person wrote:The underlying problem is that people in sufficiently hostile and/or chaotic circumstances drift back toward the R-type reproduction strategy.
They...collect colored orbs to influence the development of their somewhat-detachable attack pod?
Man, if kids could shoot wave lasers I'd be trying to have one.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:41 pm

NMcCoy wrote:You put a sheet of paper atop the bridge, and then the weight, and it stays intact, because the force of the lead weight isn't transmitted to the bridge?

Not exactly, since the lead weight would "weigh" far less than the much-broader sheet of paper on Trys, even assuming that lead is on their Table of Elements. You cannot "shadow" a larger cross-section with a smaller cross-section even if Linovective shadowing existed in Trys. And there is no such thing as a smaller object that is heavier than a significantly larger object in Trys. The paper would be far more likely to crush your weak bridge than a smaller lump of metal would, even with the slight increase in Linovective force that is exterted on a denser collection of tratons.

But yes, the metal weight atop the paper would exert no additional force upon the bridge below. The bridge is being held up by its physical connection to a Worldplate, or else it would be uneffected by ANY of the items atop it. What you are seeing with Linovection isn't really much like Gravity at all, it's a motive force for ALL objects under a certain size, and it can only be measured as a pseudo-weight when it is being countered by the force that holds the Worldplates aloft. So only a Worldplate-connected item can really interact with a Linovection-accelerated object. Each sheet of paper only delivers force in opposition to a different force. In the case of a stack of paper, the total "weight" of the stack is equal to the "weight" of a single sheet, which in Trys is significant, as long as the paper is parallel to a Worldplate and its Linovective force is opposed by that Worldplate.

And the Universe of Mundis doesn't care whether or not you "buy" that Special Relativity is operative, even though it is counter-intuitive it's still capable of allowing the accurate prediction of outcomes. Surely two vehicles each traveling towards each other at 99% of the speed of light relative to a "stationary" object are NOT traveling at 198% of the speed of light relative to EACH OTHER, yet you accept that counter-intuitive notion and are unable to accept a counter-intuitive physical aspect of an entirely different Universe?
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:45 pm

NMcCoy wrote:Sorry, Alikat, but I don't buy that.
"It isn't additive because it doesn't depend on mass" is nonsensical. The force of a stack of papers does need to be transmitted, or else the universe's physics breaks in very strange ways:
You have a balsa wood bridge that gets crushed by a lead weight.
You put a sheet of paper atop the bridge, and then the weight, and it stays intact, because the force of the lead weight isn't transmitted to the bridge?

I can accept that perpetual motion is trivial in Trys, and that sideways things fall faster. I can't accept non-additive forces for any definition of "force" that we can relate to from our universe. According to Jenny, inertia, mass, and acceleration are all as we understand them - this necessitates "force" (defined as mass times acceleration) meaning the same thing as well.



Mass is indeed separate from linovective force in Tryslmaistan, it is a completely isolated phenomenon. The effect is very similar, on the human scale to the effect of mass in Mundis, but it is not the same thing at all. The same is true of the seeming perception of inertia. Timespace is vastly different in Tryslmaistan than in Mundis, it has to be. Some things seem similar, but they are not, they just initially appear so.

'Lumons', for example, serve -almost- the same useful function to human perception as photons, but a photon could literally not exist within Tryslmaistan. Lumons are not light, and they are not percieved in the same manner (see the many discussions about this re the original Unicorn Jelly). Matter as we know it cannot exist within Tryslmaistan, or spacetime as we have it here. There is no speed of light in Tryslmaistan, Einstein does not apply, and while the basic physics mimic much of what we experience, at least on the human scale of reference, they do vary at other scales revealing their true, alien nature.

It would be a mistake to assume that just because a human in Tryslmaistan would, initially, seem to experience phenomena remarkably similar to inertia, for example, that it is the same thing. If you found yourself suddenly there, alive, you would quickly realize things did not 'feel' right, that the acceleration of an object was subtly different, and followed different rules. Alikat is essentially correct. It is weird, yes, nonsensical within Mundis, yes, but sensible within Tryslmaistan.

Tryslmaistan is alien. An alien physics. No part of it is 'copied over' from Mundis. It is its own animal. It is just convenient, and an accidental fortune, that within the human scale of reference, existence is both possible, and not overly, extremely strange. At least immediately. Again, there was much fuss about this years ago during the original run of Unicorn Jelly.

Someday, perhaps, when I am not so tired as I am right now, I will go into the cause of apparent mass and the perception of inertia in Tryslmaistan, and how they vastly differ from their Mundis close equivalents.

But for now, I think the big poster is enough work at present.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby NMcCoy » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:18 pm

To clarify that I fully understand what Alikat is saying, I'll return to the block diagrams:

[ ] ___1.0___

[ ]
[ ] ___1.0___

[ ][ ] ___2.0___

[ ]
[ ][ ] ___2.0___

[ ][ ]
[ ] ___1.0___

These would be your answers, correct, Alikat?
Monthenor wrote:
strange_person wrote:The underlying problem is that people in sufficiently hostile and/or chaotic circumstances drift back toward the R-type reproduction strategy.
They...collect colored orbs to influence the development of their somewhat-detachable attack pod?
Man, if kids could shoot wave lasers I'd be trying to have one.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:12 pm

Not quite, your last diagram shows a larger object atop a smaller object. There would be linovective force equal to the overhanging surface area applied to the top object that WOULD be added to the force at the interface with the worldplate. This would mean that the
[ ][ ]
[ ]
will always be equal to 2.0.

Look at it this way: Two bullets fired from the same gun barrel. The second cartridge was loaded with more powder than the first. When the second bullet catches up with the first, their velocities are not added together, the greater of the two velocities imparts some of its kinetic energy to the lesser. If the two bullets are loaded exactly the same, then even if you were able to fire them almost simultaneously, so that they were touching but neither was faster than the other, they would not significantly effect each other's velocity. If the second bullet is loaded with LESS powder than the first, then they definitely will never interact.

Well, the stack of paper on Trys is like a stream of bullets from that hypothetical gun. If one of them is bigger than the others, then the "weight" of the stack is equal to the "weight" of the largest piece of paper (like the fastest bullet determines the maximum velocity of the machine gun's output). Firing the faster bullet second will speed up the first bullet, but none of the bullets ever goes faster than the fastest bullet.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Tychomonger » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:37 pm

Alikat: You seem to be saying that Linovection is not a force, i.e. something which causes acceleration, so much as a tendency to move at a certain speed when not hindered. Is this correct?

If things want to be moving downward at some speed, and are not, there will be some force trying to accelerate it to that speed. It seems to me like this force would be less, the closer the object is to that speed. A loose object sitting on a world plate will will be pressing down onto it as it tries to get going to the speed it wants to be at. A loose object sitting on top of that first object will also be pressing into that object. Aren't these forces additive?
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:49 pm

No, it's a force that works in opposition to Planovection and which, without Planovection, would cause all objects in Trys to be constantly cycling spatially along the Z axis. Planovection creates a stationary frame of reference in which we can perceive Linovection as causing a relative "falling" effect, but without Planovection, the Planotrahesion force would still cause Worldplates to form, but there would be a constant upwards "wind" due to the Worldplates all moving together (along with all other matter large enough to be effected by Linovection) along the Z axis. Since there would be no relatively stationary objects, it would appear to the observer as if all the air in Trys was constantly rushing in one direction (what we now see as "upwards").

So when a Worldplate is there to get in the way, Linovection works in opposition to the Planovective force. The real pseudo-gravity is due to the Planovective force, which holds a Worldplate still when anything smaller would simply move along the Linovective lines at a rate determined by the number of stria intersected.

I understand it's counter-intuitive, we always think that stacking things adds up their total weight, but in Trys, that just isn't so, weight is not connected to mass, only to cross-section, and cross-sections are not cumulative, Linovective force can ONLY be measured in relation to Planovective force as they are oppositional, and neither one has a measurable effect to an observer in Trys without the other force.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:40 pm

Alikat is exactly correct.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby NMcCoy » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:21 pm

Would it be easier if we stopped calling linovection a force, then, because it works unlike any other force in a mathematical sense? For the sake of us physics-minded types where "force" has a very specific meaning (F = ma), using "force" in a scientific analysis context where it doesn't apply to something that = ma is disorienting at best. Unless Trys doesn't have any forces at all, in which case things would likely be behaving much more strangely than observed in the canon. Force can be dependent on all sorts of things - another force, movement (drag is proportional to square of velocity and drag coefficient; if linovection were a force, it could easily work very much like "drag" against a linovective ether - which was my original hypothesis), whatever; but in our world, if something changes the velocity of a mass, it's a force, no exceptions -- and that force can be calculated based on the object's mass and acceleration.

How do you weigh something in Trys, anyway? By Alikat's explanation a balance scale doesn't tip at all unless something extends over the edge of either tray. A plate scale wouldn't work for a similar reason, if linovective "force" isn't transmitted. A spring scale might work, if Hooke's Law still exists, though you'd need some way to convert mathematically between linovective and real force.

Actually, if spring scales still work, that gives rise to more experiments I'd need to conduct.

As well as this: ([ ] is empty space)
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ]
Can this stack of blocks be extended indefinitely without falling over? If not, why not?
Monthenor wrote:
strange_person wrote:The underlying problem is that people in sufficiently hostile and/or chaotic circumstances drift back toward the R-type reproduction strategy.
They...collect colored orbs to influence the development of their somewhat-detachable attack pod?
Man, if kids could shoot wave lasers I'd be trying to have one.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Skatche » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:00 am

Let me see if I can summarize the paper/lead issue.

Let's look at two objects that are not resting on a Worldplate, but falling perpetually. The one higher up is wider than the one lower down - the paper is on top of the weight. The tendency will be for the paper to fall faster than the weight - which means the weight will be holding the paper back. But also, the paper will be pushing the weight forward. You'd end up with an overall velocity which is an average (weighted, presumably, according to some principle) of the two individual velocities.

Now rest your lead atop a scale-like gizmo, and the paper atop the lead. The paper/weight complex is "trying to fall" at the averaged velocity, so it will weigh somewhere between the weight of the paper alone and the weight of the lead alone. Interestingly, this means the lead is "feeling" more weight from the paper than the scale is from the paper and the lead together!

In the reverse situation, with the paper falling below the lead, they tend to move away from each other, which means no pushing is involved. Therefore setting the paper on the scale, and the lead on top of the paper, leads to no net increase in weight over just the paper.

Am I right?
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby NMcCoy » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:11 am

Skatche wrote:Am I right?

Not quite, by Alikat's assertion (which by Word of Jenny is canon). The linoweight felt at the bottom of a stack of objects is exactly equal to the linoweight of the heaviest object in the stack. Presumably, the paper-atop-weight falls exactly as fast as the paper would alone, the weight's reluctance nonwithstanding.

(As I intend to demonstrate later once I figure out some non-ASCII-art way of illustrating easily, this has very... interesting consequences when you start building unusual "stacks".)

Edit: Oh, here's a linowheel I just made, out of a pushpin, a pencil, and an index card! I took the photo from above, at the correct angle to get it to spin properly (45 degrees). Observe that the left side is always heavier than the right, and so it will quickly start spinning as fast as the wind resistance will allow, or until linovective equilibrium is reached with the heavy side's downward speed.
Image

Besides being a source of freely-available torque, this has many other interesting applications...
Monthenor wrote:
strange_person wrote:The underlying problem is that people in sufficiently hostile and/or chaotic circumstances drift back toward the R-type reproduction strategy.
They...collect colored orbs to influence the development of their somewhat-detachable attack pod?
Man, if kids could shoot wave lasers I'd be trying to have one.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:49 am

NMcCoy wrote:Image

Besides being a source of freely-available torque, this has many other interesting applications...


I do not see this working. The linea would pass through all parts of the blades equally, the right and left sides would have the same degree of impetus pushing them down, and the flat middle cross would have equal linovection upon it, the wheel should just sit immobile as it does on earth.

Linea pass through to the direction of universal down, but they do not have 'friction', they do not squeeze or rub, nor do they push in any direction except 'down'. Angles merely mean less of a push 'down', with no lateral force whatsoever. Perhaps it is just because I am exhausted, trying to re-set my sleep schedule, but to me this perpetual motion machine simply would not work as shown.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:03 am

Babies must find it easy to learn to walk in Trys since balancing is easy, which is a good thing since our semicircular canals stopped working exactly the same the second we translated. That first generation of refugees must have found themselves barely able to walk and constantly dizzy.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby NMcCoy » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:45 am

It may not be clear from the picture, but I'm absolutely certain that it must work if linovection is as described. Probably easiest if you envision a two-bladed propeller, with the blades at a 45 degree angle. With the axis tilted at 45 degrees, this makes one blade vertical and one blade horizontal. Clearly the horizontal blade experiences more linovective weight than the vertical one; this makes it turn. (And canon readily supports that off-center linovection can impart angular momentum - if it didn't, you'd have some wonderful bizarre Tetris-world where things could not fall over! Lots of things fall over in UJ and TSH.)

The fact that it works shouldn't be a big deal at all in an anentropic universe, anyway - It's just one way of many to extract free energy from the universe itself. (In fact, I've realized that according to Alikat's Law certain other Mundis "perpetual motion" machines could actually work in Trys, albeit not always in ways that one might expect - one of them runs backwards! But the simple linowheel is by far the most elegant, having a single moving part.)

Thanks to the discovery of Alikat's Law, though, there's something quite marvelous you can do with these things, which I'll explain in due course.

Edit: While I'm recklessly coining terms here: If the electanic aura of an object is termed a geist, might I then reasonably call the 2D projection of that geist into the horizontal plane a "shade"?

Amusing note: I initially typoed "might" as "wight" in that sentence. XD

2nd edit: seems some of the original linovection debates have been lost to the mists of time, but here is a post by Alikat clearly supporting linovection-powered perpetual motion. Even without recourse to some of the original arguments, it seems clear from recent discussions that (per Alikat) an empty crate weighs roughly the same as a full one, right? If so, why was there such a fuss about Arks being overweight in UJ?
Monthenor wrote:
strange_person wrote:The underlying problem is that people in sufficiently hostile and/or chaotic circumstances drift back toward the R-type reproduction strategy.
They...collect colored orbs to influence the development of their somewhat-detachable attack pod?
Man, if kids could shoot wave lasers I'd be trying to have one.
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