Fun With Linovection


Kaye Haychold's ambitious plan

Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Skatche » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:53 am

Just to clear up confusion here:

Jennifer, his linowheel should NOT be held (more or less) upright as in the picture, but at a 45 degree angle with the ground. The photo is what the device would look like from above. I got confused about that too.

Very clever little thing, NMcCoy. I am impressed.

As to the paper/lead issue: NMcCoy, if you reread Alikat's post, you'll see she actually asserts only that linovective "weight" is not additive. I'm saying it's not additive too - it's averaged in some cases, and ignored outright in others. Otherwise there would be a clear contradiction with your prior post about a stack of a thousand sheets of paper gradually getting lighter as they became one object.

(To be honest, it seems like there may still be a contradiction.)

I have another question. It's been stated that the more a tower electanically couples with its worldplate, the less it'll feel linovection. Wouldn't it, however, then feel planovection (or whatever it's called) making it want to smoosh into the worldplate's shape? Shouldn't that bring it tumbling, without some awesome technological intervention?
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby strange_person » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:24 am

NMcCoy wrote: If so, why was there such a fuss about Arks being overweight in UJ?

They need to accelerate horizontally, fast enough to outpace the Storm. Horizontal inertia seems to be an entirely separate phenomenon.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:27 pm

I don't think the wheel would work since it's a single item. Linovection isn't gravity, there isn't a heavy side and a light side, there is heavy object and light object. Like I said, balancing is easy in Trys, if you flip a coin several throws out of a hundred will actually stay on the coin's edge. You CAN have a tremendous amount of overhang as long as there is a solid geist connecting the overhang to a secure base. Your wheel should stay stationary because Linovection works on discrete objects, and the wheel is a single discrete object.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:32 pm

Skatche wrote:I have another question. It's been stated that the more a tower electanically couples with its worldplate, the less it'll feel linovection. Wouldn't it, however, then feel planovection (or whatever it's called) making it want to smoosh into the worldplate's shape? Shouldn't that bring it tumbling, without some awesome technological intervention?

Planotrahesion creates Worldplates from pulverized dust particles and water vapor after a Stormfall, it's a bit more subtle than either Linovection or Planovection. It's sort of like LaGrange Points or Trojan Points, it just takes slightly less energy for the Worldplate material to settle in those triangular regions than to keep bouncing around in the Great Dust Cloud.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby NMcCoy » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:01 pm

Alikat wrote:there isn't a heavy side and a light side, there is heavy object and light object.


Okay, this just isn't plausible to me, with the physics we've observed in the comics. If this were the case, there'd not only be coins balancing on edges, the coin would end up sitting diagonally on the table most of the time rather than settling flat, as a matter of course, but we don't ever see this happen. Note that all the recycler buttons here land flat, for example.
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strange_person wrote:The underlying problem is that people in sufficiently hostile and/or chaotic circumstances drift back toward the R-type reproduction strategy.
They...collect colored orbs to influence the development of their somewhat-detachable attack pod?
Man, if kids could shoot wave lasers I'd be trying to have one.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:14 am

Aren't they designed to stick to things? Anyway, when she threw them, they were spinning a bit, and as soon as they presented their widest cross-section to the ground they plummeted. I think if you press down on something every time it rotates parallel to the ground it might just tend to stabilize in that position and stop spinning.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby NMcCoy » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:44 am

None of them except the one that hit Only made the loud bonding "TAK" sound. The rest made the same TIK that they do when Kaye drops them back into the bucket later, so there's no reason to believe they're doing any sticking at all.

Also, they're pretty small objects in general, so they're not going to "plummet" much at all, plus when they turn sideways again they'll slow down as quickly as they sped up (as linovection is a tendency to move downward at a certain speed, after all). Certainly more of them will first touch the ground facing closer to horizontal - but once they're touching the ground, the floor is holding up the whole thing, not just the lower edge, so there's no reason for it to continue rotating. Remember, by your claim linovection is not distributed over the cross sectional area of the object, but acts to move "the whole object" - in game terms, linovection moves the object's axis-aligned bounding box downward until something is holding up the lowest point of the object, at which point it stops. Balancing is not just easy, it's meaningless - as long as some part of the object is supported against linovection, the whole thing is, so stuff can't fall over.
Monthenor wrote:
strange_person wrote:The underlying problem is that people in sufficiently hostile and/or chaotic circumstances drift back toward the R-type reproduction strategy.
They...collect colored orbs to influence the development of their somewhat-detachable attack pod?
Man, if kids could shoot wave lasers I'd be trying to have one.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:08 am

Perhaps it's the inertia, which Jenny has said does exist in all three Universes in the UJ stories, which dragged the discs down all the way flat. After all, they did have some motion imparted to them by Linovection, and then they hit the floor, presumably mostly at an angle to the floor, so wouldn't the INERTIA of the overhanging load bring it down to a position stable enough for the floor to absorb the inertia of the disc? Perhaps you can set the discs down gently on their edges until the Slimes come home, but dropping them almost always lands them either face-up or face-down.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Skatche » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:29 am

If what you're suggesting is true, Alikat, then walking simply wouldn't work anymore. We move forward by continually throwing ourselves off-balance and then catching ourselves. With what you're describing, "off-balance" wouldn't be a sensible concept, and hell, you'd even have a great deal of trouble standing up straight. I mean, you could just lounge at a twenty degree angle from the ground, as long as you were strong enough.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:22 pm

Then humans can't move on ice or snow? Friction is all that is required for locomotion. We adapt to different environments. I can even swim in LIQUID WATER! :o

I think all this hair-splitting arguing is cute. It's like that XKCD comic, "Someone is Wrong on the Internet!" Just remember that I'm old and I have a lot more experience at crafting bullshit than you do. :)
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Monthenor » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:58 pm

Someone just invoked Internet Seniority during a discussion about not-gravity in a fake universe in a webcomic.

I love this forum so much.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:18 pm

You know who else disagreed with me about Linovection? Just Hitler, that's who! :D
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:41 pm

Alikat wrote:You know who else disagreed with me about Linovection? Just Hitler, that's who! :D


Now it is complete.

The stars are finally in the correct place.

The Old One will finally return.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Skatche » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:42 pm

Alikat wrote:Then humans can't move on ice or snow? Friction is all that is required for locomotion. We adapt to different environments. I can even swim in LIQUID WATER!


Look - it's late and I'm tired and I don't feel like digging through hundreds of pages of comics. So I'll state this conditionally: if anyone ever fell over in a Unicorn Jelly or To Save Her comic, you're wrong.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby NMcCoy » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:48 am

Hey, Skatche - what do you say we form a band of Rogue Alchemists, building devices powered by the forbidden linowheel technology? Everyone wins - we get our awesome perpetual motion tech, an easy explanation of why you don't see linowheels everywhere in the canon (we already have precedent of simple-yet-forbidden technology, after all), and hey - a super-secret society of mad scientists! What more could you want?

-NMcCoy, Rogue Alchemist! :mrgreen: (Has an even better ring to it than xenophysicist, really.)
Monthenor wrote:
strange_person wrote:The underlying problem is that people in sufficiently hostile and/or chaotic circumstances drift back toward the R-type reproduction strategy.
They...collect colored orbs to influence the development of their somewhat-detachable attack pod?
Man, if kids could shoot wave lasers I'd be trying to have one.
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Skatche » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:30 am

NMcCoy wrote:Hey, Skatche - what do you say we form a band of Rogue Alchemists, building devices powered by the forbidden linowheel technology? Everyone wins - we get our awesome perpetual motion tech, an easy explanation of why you don't see linowheels everywhere in the canon (we already have precedent of simple-yet-forbidden technology, after all), and hey - a super-secret society of mad scientists! What more could you want?

-NMcCoy, Rogue Alchemist! :mrgreen: (Has an even better ring to it than xenophysicist, really.)


The Man is preventing our alchemical advances from becoming public! Yeah, I'm talking about Big Trato; MJ3; The Electaminati. They're too heavily invested in the existing power structure. Need to keep power generation centralized so they can control us. Bastards in league with transdimensional aliens, Kitikats or Alikats or whatever, mutter mutter...
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:33 pm

Skatche wrote:Look - it's late and I'm tired and I don't feel like digging through hundreds of pages of comics. So I'll state this conditionally: if anyone ever fell over in a Unicorn Jelly or To Save Her comic, you're wrong.

On the INTERNET!!!
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alikat » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:35 pm

Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:The Old One will finally return.

The OLD ONES! THAT is the equation!
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Skatche » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:44 pm

Alikat wrote:
Skatche wrote:Look - it's late and I'm tired and I don't feel like digging through hundreds of pages of comics. So I'll state this conditionally: if anyone ever fell over in a Unicorn Jelly or To Save Her comic, you're wrong.

On the INTERNET!!!


On all the internets!!
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Re: Fun With Linovection

Postby Alfador » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:25 pm

Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:This nature to discreet objects


*cough* "Discrete." >_>

Jennifer Diane Reitz wrote:In effect, all matter is 'memory metal' in Tryslmaistan. Sort of.


I find that indescribably cool. Inversely, memory metal in our world can give us a view of what ordinary objects in a universe like Tryslmaistan would do. Instead of destroying an object resulting in information loss from the loss of its organization, that information remains behind on its own and can influence matter to display said information.

It's more like ghosts than you explicitly said. :3

Linovection thought experiments


One important thing to note is that if you hold volume and cross-sectional area constant, linovection behaves as if it were a gravitational field: Objects with higher densities are affected by linovection more, in direct proportion to the density increase. So as mass increases with cross-sectional area held constant, the force increases at the exact same rate, so acceleration is constant for a constant cross-sectional area: F = ma, so since F is proportional to both B (the base area, to distinguish from a the acceleration) and m, if F = k*B*m, where k is the linovectional constant, a = k*B no matter what the mass is.

Aaaaand there's probably variables I'm not taking into account, but I've reached the limit of what back-of-the-envelope calculations can offer us, at least until I read further in the thread and perhaps find some definitive equations straight from the Source. ;)

HOLYCRAPlarge amounts of discussion on this topic


Um... yeah. @,@ I'll just... keep reading and try to figure out the physics.
Arf! *wagwagwag*
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