Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Idiot Glee » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:54 pm

I'm asking this out of some personal curiosity, and just because I've been reading about education policy as of late. I'm hoping to get a feeling for whether education standards have slipped over time or not.

What year did you graduate from High School?
What was the highest level of mathematics you studied in High School?
Do you feel mathematics was properly taught, and taught to the level it was said to be?
Would you rate your teacher's skill level at teaching mathematics as, Bad, OK, or Good?
Do you feel that the mathematics you learned in high school, and the skills associated, have stuck with you?
Do you feel that you put your best effort into studying mathematics?
Do you feel that your teacher put their best effort into teaching mathematics?

If you're not comfortable answering publicly, but would like to help with this, please PM me the response.
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Coda » Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:00 pm

What year did you graduate from High School? 2000
What was the highest level of mathematics you studied in High School? Calculus 1
Do you feel mathematics was properly taught, and taught to the level it was said to be? Don't remember
Would you rate your teacher's skill level at teaching mathematics as, Bad, OK, or Good? Don't remember
Do you feel that the mathematics you learned in high school, and the skills associated, have stuck with you? Hard to say, see below
Do you feel that you put your best effort into studying mathematics? No
Do you feel that your teacher put their best effort into teaching mathematics? Yes

It's been ten years since I took that class. ^^() I really don't remember much about how the class was taught, only that I never felt like the teacher was incompetent. I didn't pay a lot of attention in the class and still managed to ace the final (which was the AP Calculus exam, so it was a nationwide standard evaluation; the content of the test wasn't subject to the competence or teaching style of my teacher), so that has to say SOMETHING.

And the point I mentioned where it's hard to say is because I went on to take three more years of math classes in college that built upon the calculus class I took in high school, so I really can't say whether or not the high-school-specific parts themselves stuck with me or if I remember them because I used them in later classes.

That said, I do retain a lot more of the Calculus 1 skill than my later math classes -- I wouldn't know where to START with a differential equation now.
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Nick » Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:51 pm

What year did you graduate from High School?

2003

What was the highest level of mathematics you studied in High School?

Pre-calculus

Do you feel mathematics was properly taught, and taught to the level it was said to be?

Yes

Would you rate your teacher's skill level at teaching mathematics as, Bad, OK, or Good?

Good

Do you feel that the mathematics you learned in high school, and the skills associated, have stuck with you?

Yes. Not the precalculus, but the rest comes back easily if I get a piece of paper and pencil to work out the problems with.

Do you feel that you put your best effort into studying mathematics?

No, I only put in as much effort as was needed to get an A. I slept through some of the classes and still never got a grade lower than B+.

Do you feel that your teacher put their best effort into teaching mathematics?

Yes
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Mitsukara » Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:52 pm

I think my reply may supply unhelpful data due to my unusual circumstances.

Graduated: 2006 sorta? That's when my parents said I was done. I got my GED in 2009 though.

Highest level of mathematics studied: Properly studied? Algebra-related geometry problems. I barely know what calculus and trigonometry are because I've never gone back to self-teach or engaged someone else in going over it (though I do know who would probably be willing to if I ever get my act together enough to attempt it).

Properly taught, to the level it should be?: Haha no.

Have the mathetmatics I've learned in high school, and the skills associated, stuck with me?: Ehhhh, I can remember what I'm doing if I go over it a bit. I can still solve basic algebra equations and I remember some of the various methods for doing so offhand, and I think I remember whatever skills I developed in the effort.

Teacher's skill level; bad, okay, or good?: Haha no. Okay, that's not an answer. Bad then. Sorry, mom. Getting into arguments because I insisted on asking why things worked, instead of just how, does not constitute good teaching.

Did I put in my best effort studying mathematics?: Oh hell no. I thought of it as the plague. English was much easier, but I kind of get lax and disorganized about how I use that, so...

Do you feel your teacher put their best effort into teaching mathematics?: Sadly, yeah, I think so. Most of the time, when she wasn't feeling sick.

This is what happens when you have unsupervised, unregistered homeschooling (or at least, when the parents are over the hill and on their fourth kid), people. I realize the school system is a mess, and really competent, focused parents could probably do amazing stuff, but... when you narrow the system down to two people, everything depends on the quality of those two people, instead of some social standard and set of rules and methods. It can go poorly. *shrugs*
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby mwchase » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:32 pm

What year did you graduate from High School? 2008
Do you feel that the mathematics you learned in high school, and the skills associated, have stuck with you? It's varied. I've never ever used some techniques, even for advanced classes that would presumably build on what came before.
Do you feel mathematics was properly taught, and taught to the level it was said to be? By Junior year, I was completely slacking off, skipping the homework, and doing fine. My biggest complaint was that things were going too slow. This was in BC Calc, so results not typical, in all likelihood.

Thing about these is, I don't know whether I should count the last high school math class I took, or the last math class I took while in high school. (BC Calc vs Linear Algebra)

What was the highest level of mathematics you studied in High School?
Would you rate your teacher's skill level at teaching mathematics as, Bad, OK, or Good?
Do you feel that you put your best effort into studying mathematics?
Do you feel that your teacher put their best effort into teaching mathematics?
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Tychomonger » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:48 pm

What year did you graduate from High School? 2003
What was the highest level of mathematics you studied in High School? Calculus 1, as an AP course
Do you feel mathematics was properly taught, and taught to the level it was said to be? Yes, to a good extent.
Would you rate your teacher's skill level at teaching mathematics as, Bad, OK, or Good? OK to Good
Do you feel that the mathematics you learned in high school, and the skills associated, have stuck with you? Absolutely, through continued use.
Do you feel that you put your best effort into studying mathematics? I kinda slept through calc 1 making the teacher hate me, but I did make sure I understood everything.
Do you feel that your teacher put their best effort into teaching mathematics? Yes.
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby draque » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:49 am

What year did you graduate from High School?
2001

What was the highest level of mathematics you studied in High School?
Calc 1

Do you feel mathematics was properly taught, and taught to the level it was said to be?
It prepped me for college, and the teacher went over all the basic concepts and methods behind them, which was good enough.

Would you rate your teacher's skill level at teaching mathematics as, Bad, OK, or Good?
good

Do you feel that the mathematics you learned in high school, and the skills associated, have stuck with you?
yes

Do you feel that you put your best effort into studying mathematics?
yes

Do you feel that your teacher put their best effort into teaching mathematics?
yes

As an additional note, I do sort of feel like the field of mathematics is oddly stressed here in the US. It's important, yes, but for even most sciences, you'll only need a couple semesters of calc to have all the math you need. I took CS is college, and went all the way through differential equations, linear algebra, etc. Some of the statistics that I learned have been useful in deeper analysis and optimization of programs that I've written, but for the most part, I've felt that the time I spent learning the more advanced math could have been better spent on subjects directly related to computing (or at least branches of math that were more directly related).


Coda wrote:That said, I do retain a lot more of the Calculus 1 skill than my later math classes -- I wouldn't know where to START with a differential equation now.


Also this is made of great truth. I will on occasion have nightmares about a shadowy man pressing a gun against my head and demanding that a solve boundary-variable problems, but that's the closest I come to being able to actually dothem.
Last edited by draque on Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Coda » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:03 am

I dunno, differential equations is going to be pretty vital if you're going into a lot of physical sciences -- fluids and aerodynamics use them a lot.
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby draque » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:37 am

True enough, but what I'm getting at is that math seems to be thrown at people with the assumption that it is universally relevant. Education is a great thing, and the sciences are what future tech and human wellbeing spring from, but when so much focus is made on elements of math that aren't relevant to a particular field of study, you're going to have wasted effort. If I had been learning math that was directly related to CS, it wouldn't have bugged me so much, but I felt as if I were being ripped off, having to pay for learning something that wasn't useful to me, when I could have been taking classes in something more appropriate to my degree.
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Plasman » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:28 am

IDK if my input matters here, since I studied in a completely different country from you guys, but here goes.

What year did you graduate from High School? 1996. I'm an old bastard. :D

What was the highest level of mathematics you studied in High School? It was VCE Mathematics, the advanced level (I forget the name, I think it was called Maths Methods?)

Do you feel mathematics was properly taught, and taught to the level it was said to be? I would say so, in that the teachers had a good knowledge of the stuff they were showing us. Some of them were especially good at mathematics, actually.

Would you rate your teacher's skill level at teaching mathematics as, Bad, OK, or Good? Most of them were Good.

Do you feel that the mathematics you learned in high school, and the skills associated, have stuck with you? Part of it has - I remember basic geometry and arithmetic - but a lot of it I've forgotten in the decade and a half since I studied. (I always thought that maths class was more than just the actual math-work, it was also a chance to practice and expand on how you understood and solved problems.)

Do you feel that you put your best effort into studying mathematics? Wellllllll... I guess I could have done better, though not having a computer at home didn't help much.

Do you feel that your teacher put their best effort into teaching mathematics? Yes, especially in the final two years of school (which was when it really mattered apparently).


I can't say how my experience compared to the study method employed these days, but I would expect it to be mostly the same. Then again, a lot can change in fifteen years!
I would say that my training ranged from adequate to excellent; it helped that I had an interest and aptitude for most of it, though sadly I've lost a lot of the skills I learned since then (mostly because I haven't used them much).
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Coda » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:29 pm

The way I see it, Draque, the math I studied was as much an exercise in problem solving under heavy constraints with difficult issues as it was learning about the math techniques themselves. And when it comes to engineering, learning HOW TO SOLVE the problems -- as opposed to learning the specific problems themselves -- is extremely relevant to CS.
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Idiot Glee » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:57 pm

Coda wrote:The way I see it, Draque, the math I studied was as much an exercise in problem solving under heavy constraints with difficult issues as it was learning about the math techniques themselves. And when it comes to engineering, learning HOW TO SOLVE the problems -- as opposed to learning the specific problems themselves -- is extremely relevant to CS.


So you learned heuristics and not calculation techniques?
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Plasman » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:27 pm

...You took the words right out of my mouth, Coda! :lol: I said almost the same thing.

It's basically a case of the subject having more than one application. That is, you're not just learning the obvious lessons, you're also developing skills on deeper levels.
For example, in English class we used to have people questioning the value of the lessons, since "we already spoke English anyway". But they weren't just lessons in grammar and spelling; we also learned how words and sentence structures could be used to express different things, and how language could be manipulated so that truth could be illuminated (or obscured).

Likewise, we studied mathematics not just to come to a valid conclusion, but to understand the procedures that got us there in the first place.
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Coda » Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:08 am

Idiot Glee wrote:
Coda wrote:The way I see it, Draque, the math I studied was as much an exercise in problem solving under heavy constraints with difficult issues as it was learning about the math techniques themselves. And when it comes to engineering, learning HOW TO SOLVE the problems -- as opposed to learning the specific problems themselves -- is extremely relevant to CS.


So you learned heuristics and not calculation techniques?

I learned the techniques necessary TO LEARN THE TECHNIQUES.
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby draque » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:39 am

I can certainly understand what you're saying, and I agree with it to an extent. What I'm saying though, is that there's a middle ground. There's no lack of math that's applicable directly to the kinds of problems that come up in CS. Techniques for analyzing DB usage/optimization and generalized data storage, graphics stuff (which would leverage some of the linear algebra I was kvetching about earlier) and plenty of others would be just as effective in teaching people how to learn as any others, but as an added bonus, they would have direct significance to the field. With CS in particular, I feel like that's an issue.
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Zygote Jr. » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:48 pm

What year did you graduate from High School? 1993
What was the highest level of mathematics you studied in High School? Calculus I
Do you feel mathematics was properly taught, and taught to the level it was said to be? No, and no.
Would you rate your teacher's skill level at teaching mathematics as, Bad, OK, or Good? OK.
Do you feel that the mathematics you learned in high school, and the skills associated, have stuck with you? No.
Do you feel that you put your best effort into studying mathematics? Yes.
Do you feel that your teacher put their best effort into teaching mathematics? Definitely not.
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Coda » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:43 am

draque wrote:I can certainly understand what you're saying, and I agree with it to an extent. What I'm saying though, is that there's a middle ground. There's no lack of math that's applicable directly to the kinds of problems that come up in CS. Techniques for analyzing DB usage/optimization and generalized data storage, graphics stuff (which would leverage some of the linear algebra I was kvetching about earlier) and plenty of others would be just as effective in teaching people how to learn as any others, but as an added bonus, they would have direct significance to the field. With CS in particular, I feel like that's an issue.

But then the classes can't be reused for other majors like physics, chemistry, mechanical engineering, architecture, etc. The more abstract layer means there's less curriculum to have to maintain, which makes it somewhat more likely to be of better quality. Not to mention that applied math courses (which is what you're describing) really DON'T teach you how to learn because they couch it in terms of a SPECIFIC application, which does nothing to broaden your base of general-purpose techniques.

A computer graphics class wouldn't really work that well for teaching the math, anyway, because then you'd have to make a whole course SEQUENCE -- you'd first have to learn the basics of how to get the computer to do what you want it to do graphically (I don't know OpenGL even now) so that you have a foundation to learn the math behind it. Meanwhile if you know the math first it applies fairly intuitively once you learn the graphics development tools, not to mention that linear algebra can extend to whole other classes of development beyond just graphics -- cryptography, for instance, makes extensive use of it.

Then there's discrete math -- in my opinion, that's a higher-level math class that every CS major needs to take but a lot of course programs don't even touch it. I can't think of any possible way to teach discrete math except to teach discrete math, but its use is IMMEDIATELY applicable and understanding it is vital before you can move on to things like complexity analysis and algorithm optimization. (You can't convert a recursive function into a polynomial unless you've studied discrete math!)

I also DID study databases as its own CS class, although it didn't teach me anything practical that I hadn't learned from my father growing up. (It taught me the theory behind the techniques and best practices that I had already internalized as instinct, which I suppose could be theoretically useful someday, for instance if I ever find need to implement my own relational database engine.)

Now then, I would much rather have taken some more relevant classes than, say, differential equations or Chemistry 2 (both of which I failed once and had to retake). Those two are much more applicable to physical sciences than computer science -- I would have rather taken, say, numerical methods, which would have been more relevant (and almost as difficult; restructuring floating-point operations to minimize error isn't as easy as it sounds), but it wasn't offered to me. But linear algebra and discrete math I found particularly relevant to the field and teaching them applied just wouldn't be as effective as teaching them pure, and discrete math in particular requires AT LEAST Calculus 2, possibly Calculus 3 depending on the curriculum, in order to really grasp.
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Alfador » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:21 pm

What year did you graduate from High School?
2000.

What was the highest level of mathematics you studied in High School?
Depends on how you mean the question--the highest level of mathematics I studied within the high school BUILDING was AP Calculus--the highest level of mathematics I studied WHILE CONCURRENTLY ATTENDING high school was Differential Equations (200-level at the local community college, which was right across the street from the high school).

Do you feel mathematics was properly taught, and taught to the level it was said to be?
Honestly, it varied according to the teacher. Some were better at imparting information than others. As for the formula (pun intended) of lectures, whiteboards, and homework problems... well, much as they were hated, solving problems according to the principles learned in the preceding chapter, repeatedly, is a good method for mashing the skill into long-term memory.

Would you rate your teacher's skill level at teaching mathematics as, Bad, OK, or Good?
Like I said, varies according to the teacher, but I'd say none of the teachers I had ranked below OK, all were pretty decent at helping learn.
...then again, in several of the classses I was bored enough to program games into my calculator, but still managed to learn the lessons by going through the textbook and problems in my spare time. So I dunno.

Do you feel that the mathematics you learned in high school, and the skills associated, have stuck with you?
Absolutely--though sadly I haven't gotten into a profession that demands them, as all the openings want either a Master's Degree (that I simply didn't have the GPA to go on and get) or 5+ years of experience in the industry already... so the opportunities to use it are few and far between. Since I forgot a lot of the formulas, I often have to either derive them from the principles involved or just look them up. A few months ago I used the method for integrating the volume of a solid of revolution to confirm my answer to a riddle, and just a few days ago I satisfied my own curiosity about how much Mountain Dew I was pouring into my orange juice under ideal conditions by solving a differential equation. XD

Do you feel that you put your best effort into studying mathematics?
Absolutely. Way more effort than I put into anything nowadays. T_T

Do you feel that your teacher put their best effort into teaching mathematics?
As I said, it varied! But the best teachers did indeed put what I saw as their best effort in.
Arf! *wagwagwag*
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby Jennifer Diane Reitz » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:02 pm

What year did you graduate from High School?

1978
What was the highest level of mathematics you studied in High School?

I failed... calculus, maybe. It's hard to remember. It might have been geometry. Or just basic math. I fell asleep most of the time in there.
Do you feel mathematics was properly taught, and taught to the level it was said to be?

No. Well... maybe... it was sooooo boring I kept falling asleep. Or having apparent hallucinations from the torture.
Would you rate your teacher's skill level at teaching mathematics as, Bad, OK, or Good?

Definitely bad for me - any teaching method that induces trances as a means to escape the pain is a Fail, in my opinion.
Do you feel that the mathematics you learned in high school, and the skills associated, have stuck with you?

Not a bit. Frankly, I don't even remember my times tables from grade school. SOOOO BOOOOORING.....
Do you feel that you put your best effort into studying mathematics?

I gave the best I could, and it fell asleep as an alternative to my chewing my own foot off just to deal with the pain.
Do you feel that your teacher put their best effort into teaching mathematics?

I cannot say; he and the rest of the classroom had a tendency to fade away leaving me in some queer, silent, alternate space, an empty version of the classroom where dimensional portals opened in the walls and fairy caravans passed by.

Bottom line: I love higher math and all the wonders it offers; I just cannot stand the misery of basic math and middle level math. Give me logic and visual reasoning and I am golden, give me numbers and symbols and the cold, sterile horror of calculating and I want to claw my own arteries out.

Is this because my math teachers sucked donkey dick? Probably. It is also doubtless because I have a creative, artistic mind, and it gets bored -and boredom is torture for such- by anything that lacks all stimulus to the visual and imaginative parts of me. Creative types need to be engaged into math, I think, in extraordinary ways; they cannot be easily taught by dull rote study of gray, flat things.
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Re: Unscientific Survey! Please Assist!

Postby mwchase » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:21 pm

For whatever reason, the phrase "extraordinary ways" instantly put me in mind of this thing that I linked years back, on the old forums.

Man, how did I even find that? I forget.
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