Furries?

[Leasara]

No, they're not being mean to my family, they're getting my family to put pressure on me. You send a letter in, the church as an organization torments you for a bit, then either excommunicate you or just let you go. It's like a strange member retention program.

Geez. Do you really have to send a letter? Can't you just stop going to church?

I did stop going some time in high school, but that only made me a non-practicing member. I'm still on their logs as a member of their church until I've informed them that I no longer wish to be a member, which I have now done. Up until the time someone read that letter, I was legally subject to whatever ecclesiastical punishment they wished to force on me. Now that I have sent in the letter and it has been read by an appropriate official of the church, they no longer have a legal ability to execute any kind of punishment against me, and if they do try to punish me in some way, it's tortable.

Long story short, because I sent in that letter, I get to sue their pants off if they try to do anything to me now. I rather like the irony of the Mormons paying for my GRS (and more than likely a move to Chicago including a nice townhouse in the city.)

[Jennifer Diane Reitz]

Up until the time someone read that letter, I was legally subject to whatever ecclesiastical punishment they wished to force on me. Now that I have sent in the letter and it has been read by an appropriate official of the church, they no longer have a legal ability to execute any kind of punishment against me, and if they do try to punish me in some way, it's tortable.

Long story short, because I sent in that letter, I get to sue their pants off if they try to do anything to me now. I rather like the irony of the Mormons paying for my GRS (and more than likely a move to Chicago including a nice townhouse in the city.)

Let me begin by saying WHAT??????

Legally subject....ecclesiastical punishment.... wait. Just wait. How does this work... how is this even possible? A church can take the law into its own hands now? Vigilante church justice is legal....anywhere... in the US? Separation of Church and State and all of that? Has America fallen recently into that much of a theocracy that ecclesiastical-fucking-punishment can in any respect be considered 'legal', as in allowable or enforceable by law?

If this is the case, anywhere in the US -where I am assuming you live (reasonable, statistically)- I want to know more. The idea that Mormons -or any religion- could have legally binding punishments upon church members is not merely a rape-level violation of the Constitution, but it is the literal horror, the abomination of theocracy, what is to me perhaps the most terrible of all social constructs.

Please tell me more about what you mean by this.

I am utterly appalled at the very notion of what you have said. It sends chills down my spine.

Legally subject...it beggars my vomit reflex. Please elucidate.

[draque]

What Jenny said

I'm 100% on the same page with Jennifer here. Regardless of what the church might have told you, there isn't any organization that can declare that it has legal jurisdiction over you because you were born into it. Your rights to all non-economic freedoms (economic freedom = freedom from your debts, mortgages, etc.) are something that the government always recognizes short of a criminal conviction. The government does not recognize contracts that sign those rights away. Furthermore, even if the government did recognize them, you've mentioned that you quit the church somewhere in high school... which makes it a pretty good guess that you entered it before 18, the legal age to enter into any binding contractual agreement.

Dupe-ey church dupes people.

[Plasman]

1. I got the "Jesus Cures The Leopards" joke... eventually. (It takes me a while to "get" things, sometimes. PS. pun on Lepers/Leopards for the uninitiated)
2. I'm not a furry, I'm just a (rather odd) human being... but I respect the fact that there are people who relate to animals in this way. (and some of the avatars here are quite cute!) I see the furry phenomenon as merely another peculiar facet of human experience. (Just so long as actual animals are not involved in the kinky stuff.)
3. There is something distinctly creepy about a church being legally able to punish you for transgression. I mean, sis you hold some position of power there, or were you just a subject? Either way, that would be a very frightening place to be. I for one would not last very long as a Mormon.

It totally changes my perspective on those annoying door-to-door proselytes. I still have a copy of the Book of Mormon from the last time they came around my neighbourhood. (Incidentally, does anyone know if that offers protection from vampires? I just wanna know... )

[Alfador]

Bring your own bell, book, and candle, and execummunicate THEM. >:D

[Relee]

It totally changes my perspective on those annoying door-to-door proselytes. I still have a copy of the Book of Mormon from the last time they came around my neighbourhood. (Incidentally, does anyone know if that offers protection from vampires? I just wanna know... )

Well yes and no. It's not actually the book or holy symbol you're holding, but the power of your faith that repels vampires. If you don't really believe in the power of that book or holy symbol and the power it represents, it won't work.

[Alfador]

It totally changes my perspective on those annoying door-to-door proselytes. I still have a copy of the Book of Mormon from the last time they came around my neighbourhood. (Incidentally, does anyone know if that offers protection from vampires? I just wanna know... )

Well yes and no. It's not actually the book or holy symbol you're holding, but the power of your faith that repels vampires. If you don't really believe in the power of that book or holy symbol and the power it represents, it won't work.

So someone like me should just wield an actual weapon, like a hammer or a crowbar, because I certainly have faith that it can at least damage vampires if I swing it at them, so that faith should make it able to repel them from a distance too.

Or maybe a sunlamp.

[Idiot Glee]

3 words:

Silver Plated Garlic!

[Leasara]

Ok, I'm not fully versed in the law, but I have been doing a bit of research, and yes, this only applies in the US. The way it goes, legally, is something like this.

I join a church. The law seems to see this as a sort of contract. I've given my consent to abide by the teachings of the church, and the clergy are responsible for seeing that I 'stay on the straight and narrow' whatever their interpretation of that is. To that end, they can mete out out ecclesiastical punishment.

I'm assuming that using 'ecclesiastical' as a qualifier to the punishment means the type of punishment is limited somehow. As I understand it, ecclesiastical punishment is anything from saying 20 Hail Marry prayers up to excommunication. I would be very surprised to find out that they had a blank check as far as that punishment went. I imagine it's somewhat like a BDSM contract (which I've only heard of in passing) where one person allows another to do them bodily harm within reason, but the contract itself doesn't offer much protection in civil court and offers no protection at all in criminal court.

I'm pretty sure excommunication would be considered as the church canceling the contract, where as the letter I sent withdrew me from the contract the moment it was read by an appropriate church official (as established in two separate court cases in the 80's, the first in the Oklahoma Supreme Court case: Guinn v. Church of Christ of Collinsville, and the second was a lawsuit brought against the LDS church (mormons) by Norman Hancock in Mesa Arizona (The mormons settled out of court and the settlement was sealed)). Right now I am legally no longer a member of the church, but they are continuing to treat me as a member of their church until they finish the little bureaucratic ritual they have for a person that states they wish to withdraw from the church.

[Leasara]

3 words:

Silver Plated Garlic!

I'll go you one better.

Garlic-core silver jacketed hollow points.

[Idiot Glee]

3 words:

Silver Plated Garlic!

I'll go you one better.

Garlic-core silver jacketed hollow points.

*faints*

I almost made the same joke, but for me is was: Silver cored garlic jacketed hollow points. So yeah...

I think I like you...

[Idiot Glee]

but they are continuing to treat me as a member of their church until they finish the little bureaucratic ritual they have for a person that states they wish to withdraw from the church.

Some rite of Requisition Bureaucratus?

What form do these punishments take? Are they messing with your family?

[Leasara]

but they are continuing to treat me as a member of their church until they finish the little bureaucratic ritual they have for a person that states they wish to withdraw from the church.

Some rite of Requisition Bureaucratus?

What form do these punishments take? Are they messing with your family?

Well, they want my family, who are all mormons themselves, to mess with me. They're expecting that my family will try to pressure me to stay in the church. Actually, my father is just happy that I'm having my name removed (that's what they call it when you resign from the church, Name Removal) because it means that there is the possibility for my salvation in the afterlife.

What should have happened:
I sent the letter, they read the letter, they remove me from the church.

What has happened so far:
I sent the letter, they read the letter, they forwarded the letter to the local officials, they also notified (at least) my parents that I am seeking to leave the church. (technically I've left the church, but they disagree on that point. This can be construed as an invasion of privacy because of the way I worded my letter, but isn't worth pursuing.)

What might happen:
The local officials read the letter and:

1. decide to do the necessisary paperwork to have my name removed from the records of the church. (this is the 'bureaucratic ritual' I was referencing. Not likely to happen. Takes about a month. I don't have to do anything. I don't sue them.)
2. decide to try to council me and bring me back to the church. When this fails they will most likely begin excommunication proceedings. (More likely. Takes about a month to three months. My participation is requested, but I still don't have to do anything. Depending on how they handle the excommunication proceedings, I may bring suit against them. Would upset my father because excommunication does not allow for salvation in the afterlife. Actually, with his heart, it could kill him.)

In addition, and I'm hoping this happens, they could share my letter or certain information contained within my letter with someone outside of the Leadership. At that point I have a HUGE fargging lawsuit that I can win on my own for the cost of the court's filing fee. Like tens of millions of dollars huge. Much, much more if the redneck bigots around here catch wind of my transgendered status and act like redneck bigots tend to. Then I could potentially bankrupt the church.

Any which way, if I go to court, I'll at least be getting my GRS and a move to Chicago complete with a nice townhouse in the city.

[Monthenor]

I'm a straight white guy, human all the way. You may commence persecuting me.

I know right? We need to make an Association.

The Association for the Support of Standard Heteros Against Trannies.

Oh hey, the discussion has moved on from there...

...Actually, my father is just happy that I'm having my name removed (that's what they call it when you resign from the church, Name Removal) because it means that there is the possibility for my salvation in the afterlife.
... Depending on how they handle the excommunication proceedings, I may bring suit against them. Would upset my father because excommunication does not allow for salvation in the afterlife. Actually, with his heart, it could kill him.)

Hooray, this is my learnings for the day. I had thought Mormons believed in the strictly-thousand-gross population limit of their heaven...but a quick wiki told me I had it confused with Jehovah's Witnesses. The LDS has some sort of hierarchical heaven that could accommodate all members. My original snark is withdrawn!


The More You Know!

[Relee]

Oh, seriously? The last time a mormon told me about their heaven, they said they get to become god of their own sub-universe and rule it as they please with all their spouses.

[Alikat]

The Mormons believe that many thousands of years ago, a star-god named Elohim mated with many star-god women and populated many planets with star-god offspring, and planned to open Earth up as a place to grant bodies to the souls of many of his star-god children so that they in turn could become full-fledged star-gods and breed star-god children of their own.

Elohim had two sons interested in becoming Earth's Savior, Lucifer and his brother, Mormon Jesus. Lucifer desired to require all of Earth's star-god children to become full-fledged star-gods themselves, and Mormon Jesus desired to follow the traditional star-god ways, which was to allow the star-god children the freedom of choice to decide whether or not to go breed star-god children of their own or to remain mortal. Lucifer lost, but he managed to corrupt a third of the souls destined for Earth. So the pro-Elohim souls (again about a third of the total) became the white folks, the neutral souls became the colored folks, and the pro-Lucifer faction became the demons, forever denied a physical body. Yes, this is what Mormons actually believe!

We all know the story of how Jesus came to the Middle East, but the Mormons tell of how He also visited the New World, where the white pro-Elohim faction was wiped out. The last of the white pro-Elohim people in the New World buried the entire tale up to and including the arrival of Mormon Jesus in the New World, on some golden plates that were discovered by a man named Joseph Smith.

And now you know the REST of the story. The Mormons are just as crazy as the CoS!

[arex]

Yessss, the Book of Mormon makes Xistianity seem downright sane in comparison.

Yet, I live about 35 miles outside the Mormon homeland, and nearly all the Mormons I know (including a few relatives of mine) are pretty good people. It confuses me.



Hnnghnngh.

[Idiot Glee]

And now you know the REST of the story. The Mormons are just as crazy as the CoS!

Sure you get your own planet, but you know what I don't get?

No caffeine! I'll die before I give up coffee!

[strange_person]

Funny thing about that 'factional souls' story, it's 100% compatible with the Reynard cosmology, except for maybe the demographic ratios.

[RaharuAharu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5dscqcNOGM

The Story in Cartoon version.